Second hand market must be DIRE

jwilson said:
The market is changing: people now mostly seem to come into cruising sailing via sailing schools, a few weeks on 36-38 ft boats with full standing headroom, double berths, hot water, full electronics, powerful engines that start on the button, etc. In about 1970 I don't think I was that untypical in just buying a small cruiser after sailing dinghies and getting on with it - Friday afternoon row out to the mooring (that I laid myself) and off down channel for the weekend, week or month. Sitting headroom, primus stove, a Seagull as auxiliary power, and to start with just charts, a compass and leadline.
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You can still do that in a sub £2k Anderson 22 or many other boats dating from the 1970's when that was considered aspirational. As you say, times change and the number of people prepared to do that has declined and no longer enough to support the large stock of such boats.
 
JWilson,

I also agree but it's a sad and I'd say false state of affairs.

I have upgraded my 22' boat over the years so she is much more comfortable - and capable - than when we fitted her out in 1978, and she's just as much fun to sail .

My sheltered mooring is 5 minutes row from 2 nice old pubs, a nature reserve and a friendly, helpful and surprisingly affordable club, it's a treat just sitting on the mooring watching the boats & wildlife knowing it's my mooring.

I tried owning a bigger boat but found it and the deep water moorings were much less FUN so got my 22 back...

Now I see people with no experience even in dinghies expecting to start with 35'+, and if they can't cart around a load of furniture to & from marina berths they throw in the towel.

Maybe we need more emphasis on FUN in sailing, in say PBO - rather than £125,000 boats - and even on sailing courses !
 
Hey guys, lighten up - there are multiple reasons for boat ownership and an increased following for one does not have to have a negative impact on the others. When I look around the marina and trot buoy moorings - yes, there are a lot of large, expensive boats, but there are also plenty of small, basic and old boats there as well. There are enthusiasts who actually get pleasure out of renovating and owning small, possibly classic, boats; there are sailors on a low budget who simply can't afford anything bigger and there are "floating caravan" owners who view the boat as their holiday home - all are valid.

There is a trend towards more expensive, more luxurious boats, but that is just a reflection of more general changes in society. Fifty years ago, I (like most of us) would go with my parents to a B&B somewhere on the south coast, rent a beach hut for a couple of weeks and spend them eating ice cream and making sand castles. We didn't know any better, couldn't have afforded anything better anyway, and we had a great time. Times change, people have more money, and not many do that any more. Another example - when I was a kid, we had a 14 inch black and white telly which picked up two channels. A couple of weeks ago, our TV here gave up the ghost and I've not had time to either try to get it fixed or buy another - so I've brought the TV that my wife sometimes uses with her Wii and plugged it up. It's a flat screen colour telly, but it's only 28 inch - and I'm sitting here looking at it and thinking how small it looks!

I guess most of us here are close to 50, if not more - we are the baby boomers and have elderly relatives who unexpectedly find themselves with houses worth much more than anyone ever expected and who are now beginning to fall by the wayside. Quite a lot of the big boats in our marina have been funded out of inheritances. You are, of course, right that thirty or forty years ago people bought basic twenty-odd footers and were happy with them. But I bet you that few would have turned down a 30, 40 or 50 footer if they could have afforded it. We went through an 18 footer and a 26 footer before we got above the 30 - we were fond of both, but we certainly would not go back now unless we simply could not afford to keep our current boat. I certainly don't look down on people with small boats, what little predjudice there is seems to come more from owners of small boats that seem to feel the need to sneer at those who want large boats.

And, by the way, I'm bemused by your criticism of PBO - it seems to be very focussed on "fun" sailing - not many pages devoted to £125,000 boats. I've been seriously considering cancelling my subscription and switching to Yachting Monthly - I started buying PBO when I was restoring a 35 year old, £250 (yes, £250, not £250k) boat - it's not particularly relevant to my current approach to sailing.
 
The fettlers
The tinkerers
The polishers
The gadget buyers
The drinkers
The sun loungers
The racers
The clubish owners
The isolationists
The party-ers
The goal oriented
The dreamers
The family holidayers

Yup, takes all sorts I reckon, in all sorts of boats..better than 50 shades of dazzling white, or manky grey, or this years black...
 
Blueboatman said:
The fettlers
The tinkerers
The polishers
The gadget buyers
The drinkers
The sun loungers
The racers
The clubish owners
The isolationists
The party-ers
The goal oriented
The dreamers
The family holidayers

Yup, takes all sorts I reckon, in all sorts of boats..better than 50 shades of dazzling white, or manky grey, or this years black...
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Indeed! We don't do a lot of fettling or tinkering these days, and the wife hates racing, but we indulge in prettty much all your other options.
 
"Who wouldnt prefer a new car to an old banger - are boats any different?"





Blimey, I would hate to have to look after a ritzy new car, or a new boat for that matter.

My wife once won a new car in a raffle and sold it without looking at it. So that's two of us.



That apart, there seems to be a lot of good sense being spouted.

Youngsters like to ski,cycle, go for hoidays in Thailand, and hen nights in New York. They have rumbled the possibility that owning a boat is a bit of a millstone. Unless, of course, you like sailing a great deal.

Mind you, I never saw the tumble in prices coming, but I guess few predicted a ten year international slowdown either. Prices will pick up again but the era of the 12 grand Centaur has gone for a good while.
 
+1
jwilson said:
The market is changing: people now mostly seem to come into cruising sailing via sailing schools, a few weeks on 36-38 ft boats with full standing headroom, double berths, hot water, full electronics, powerful engines that start on the button, etc. In about 1970 I don't think I was that untypical in just buying a small cruiser after sailing dinghies and getting on with it - Friday afternoon row out to the mooring (that I laid myself) and off down channel for the weekend, week or month. Sitting headroom, primus stove, a Seagull as auxiliary power, and to start with just charts, a compass and leadline.
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Have to say I was relieved to get £1500 in the end. Brought back down to ground with my father querying why I was glad as the boat cost £5000 7 years ago, and I've spent about £4000 on it (this is not the full picture though as when I didn't sell on Apollo Duck for £2000 I took off the engine/chartplotter/automatic pilot/solar panel etc).

Hope the new owner enjoys it, was a bit horrified at the thought of breaking her up for the (now it seems non existent) lead, as I have had such a lot of pleasure from her. Andy is very right about these boats they are so solid and give you the feeling of being safe in seas where I've seen much larger boats having difficulty - certainly my Mk1 Cornish Crabber we bought this year doesn't seem anywhere as near as good in that respect.
 
We have many more accessible moorings up here. What the reduction in pricing is doing is making yachting more accessible. A mate of mine bought a westerly Warwick last year for 2k ish.

He didn't realize he could afford it as he just assumed it was beyond his means. We should all tell others outside the sport then the demand will eventually stiffen to price the bottom ladder to a sensible level.

Seems like mooring costs are controlling the market rather than boat costs in the south
 
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Have a look in any yard or yacht club boat park. You will find a lot of 1970's yachts laying derelict, trouble is they are coming to the economic end of their lives.
Any boat can be rebuilt or refitted but is it economic to do so? Ten years ago i did a major refit on a worn out Anderson 22 & a fine boat she was too. The family outgrew her & i bought a very knackered Sabre 27 fin keeler. Another major rebuild later & i can say that both boats cost more than their market value to do. And im in the trade so should know better! But i enjoyed doing it & both are very good boats.
For the ones that dont get refitted well the price can only go downwards!
 
Like Ian I was relieved to move Brigantia on for similar money

There's a huge gulf between asking prices and selling prices especially on brokerage (we were told by two different brokers that Brigantia would fetch £3k to £4k, there was never much chance of that happening unless we were prepared to sit on it racking up storage and maintenance costs for who knows how long)

The A22, the Islander 23 et all are all suffering from the same problem A good one ought to be worth around £4k but for around £4k in the current market you can take your choice of any of several marques that come with standing headroom. And that's the killer blow as most buyers at this end of the market tend to be first timers with a wife or girlfriend in tow and standing headroom is a BIG factor

I'd have been happier if I'd got another grand but then I'd probably have lost most of that in brokers fees, storage charges and so on
 
EuanMcKenzie said:
Seems like mooring costs are controlling the market rather than boat costs in the south
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Too right !

In the late 1980's I dabbled with a fin keel Carter 30, the idea had been to live on her but marina costs shot up; deep water moorings in good spots had a waiting list of 10 years and then cost over £1,000.

I also found deep water moorings a right pain, rough enough to require a small lifeboat as a tender.

Now the waiting lists are gone, but still well over £1,000, or a marina berth for my 22' boat would be £3,800 + £250 for lifts each way.

My delightful, sheltered half tide club mooring ( max 32' ) is much cheaper and much more pleasant; if people want to stay sailing without giving away thousands a year this has to be the way to keep afloat.
 
The right old boat in the right condition will sell easily. We sold our Evolution 25 for £15K last summer within a week of reducing her to that price, and could have had £17K sooner except we were aiming for £20K at that point in time. The thing is that most 'good' boats are barely average, whereas ours had been described as 'setting the standard in modern classic boat restoration' by a well known boat builder and as 'the best in her class he'd had the pleasure to survey in recent years' by a respected surveyor. Consequently, when people came to look, she was all they expected and more, rather than a let down. We also made a little money on her, so even that's not impossible.
 
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I just checked my dates. I put my old Cape Cutter 19 on the market on 20th August, and she was with her new owners on 7th September. I'd only had her three years, but I got my money back, and some. She was in very nice condition, and quite rare. I could have dropped lucky considering this topic.
 
Way said:
Hi Seajet - I'm sure they have. Genuinely great news as lots seem to be not selling. I guess I'm talking more generally. For instance I've looked at Sadler 32's over the last couple of years, just out of interest (huge lie, I look at loads of boats, all the time, massively obsessive boat geek!) and due to a childhood love of sadlers. Even ones that I've seen and thought 'seems like a good buy' are not sold perhaps 12-18 months on. I think that shows to me that things have changed. If you constantly see boats that aren't selling at seemingly decent prices then there has to be a reason.

Glad Anderson's are selling. I hope my Hurley 24 does when I win the lottery and buy an Arcona 46. And a Rustler 42. and a Rustler 24 as a daysailor. maybe the R33 too for weekends. :-)
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The boat market has changed in the last 20 years. Increasingly the new younger buyers coming into the market treat boats like they would cars. Buy what seems like good value at the boat show ( a Bav say) and chop it in for a new one three years later. They arent interested in the 30 year old Westerly that they would have to do up and whose toilet would still not meet their wives requirement. They arent into DIY maintenance or diy moorings or sailing clubs. They want marinas with showers. And in lkots of cases the well off but time short young working people go for charter rather than ownership.

Seems to me that realised prices have gone down during the recession by about 25%. The Moody 336 that I sold for 50k 3 years ago could now be had for 40k for example if the buyer shopped around. Sadler 29 bilge in decent nick bought for 13k. However I do wonder if this fall isnt worse on Brit boats. Its as if there is an international market price for bendytoys and bavs and that is keeping prices in the UK higher than would otherwsie be the case. Brit boats on the other hand only really attract buyers in the UK and so fare less well price wise.

All generalisations of course because there still are customers for the smelly old brit boats, just a lot fewer of them. And there still are some buyers who will talk themselves into paying the brokers asking price.
 
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I've noticed another factor too.

Many baby boomer's are now knocking 60 to seventy years young. And there are lots of us too.

If you like, these were the first generation that could buy boats in numbers.

Not only are the boats wearing out. The owners are too.

Things you used to do when you were fifty are now are struggle . Even if you park in marinas. It hits you all of a sudden. Believe me.

Many have, and are, packing up in numbers and can enjoy playing more with their grandchildren than boats.

I'm fighting like hell to do both.
 
When Long_Keeler and the rest of his fellow baby boomers got into sailing, I'm guessing the sport had a reasonable public profile, whereas now there is nothing.

I live on the coast - I'm guessing there are around 10 sailing clubs within a 20 minute drive. All full of oldies. I'm a youngster at 37

No publicity (that I can see) no engagement with non sailors. All have a mandate to get more youngsters into the sport but as far as I can see do sod all about it.

Very little in the media.

RYA don't do much as far as I can see.

Also..it is not a cheap hobby, and we are in a recession.

On the plus side..I bought a good boat for a reasonable price and had no problems getting a deep water mooring. Anchorages are generally empty, even in good weather, and if you want to you can always get a marina spot, probably with a discount!

Long live this golden age of sailing!!
 
jwilson said:
The market is changing: people now mostly seem to come into cruising sailing via sailing schools, a few weeks on 36-38 ft boats with full standing headroom, double berths, hot water, full electronics, powerful engines that start on the button, etc. In about 1970 I don't think I was that untypical in just buying a small cruiser after sailing dinghies and getting on with it - Friday afternoon row out to the mooring (that I laid myself) and off down channel for the weekend, week or month. Sitting headroom, primus stove, a Seagull as auxiliary power, and to start with just charts, a compass and leadline.
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That could be me talking
 
Old varnish

Enjoyed your article in YM. Very inspiring

Preaching to the converted though. Any other publicity?
 
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