Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
To each his own !!!
Second Hand Boat Buyers Conundrum - AWB vs MAB and Seaworthyness
- Thread starter steveej
- Start date
To each his own !!!
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
I have a Moody33 mk2 with a separate rear cabin accessed from the centre cockpit. It's ideal for two children, it has two berths but perhaps not for young children like yours. It was ideal for our two eldest grandchildren who started sailing with us when 9 & 11, they are now both working and said they wanted to go with us again this year but they are too busy doing their own thing...
I'll have the next pair next year(as long as I can persuade their mother to let them out of her sight!).
BUT I sailed on a 2001 Bav 34 a couple of weeks ago and to be honest I was impressed with it, roomy, nice inside with plenty of wood in sight, sailed well. This one had two singles in the saloon and a double in the stern and bows. The only down side was the genoa ripped on the way back, it was a bit windy at the time though!
I'll have the next pair next year(as long as I can persuade their mother to let them out of her sight!).
BUT I sailed on a 2001 Bav 34 a couple of weeks ago and to be honest I was impressed with it, roomy, nice inside with plenty of wood in sight, sailed well. This one had two singles in the saloon and a double in the stern and bows. The only down side was the genoa ripped on the way back, it was a bit windy at the time though!
pvb
Well-Known Member
Talk to the Yardies who chock em up ashore, the hull skin is only there to keep the water out of the bedroom
You've just qualified for free membership of the MAB Dinosaurs Forum!
steveej
Well-Known Member
These are all great comments and much appreciated so keep them coming.
Re the comment about sailing in scottish waters, I have already done that and been as far as St. Kilda on a bareboat charter.
Im in my mid thirties and work full time have 27 days off a year not including bank holidays. So having a boat needs to be close to home (Bristol) and maybe a year on the Bristol Channel which I have experience of and then moving to the south coast for a change of scene. Haven't the time to move the boat to Scotland unfortunately.
What I am after is something that will last 10 years to do all of the south coast, netherlands, belgium, france, channel islands in my weekends and holiday time. When I am maybe thinking about the next stage of my life and retirment and doing a circumnavigation or living 6 months of the year in Greece then we can think about a different boat.
Problem with a big long old MAB is they are money pit in terms of maintenance, moorings everything is exponential.
Re the comment about sailing in scottish waters, I have already done that and been as far as St. Kilda on a bareboat charter.
Im in my mid thirties and work full time have 27 days off a year not including bank holidays. So having a boat needs to be close to home (Bristol) and maybe a year on the Bristol Channel which I have experience of and then moving to the south coast for a change of scene. Haven't the time to move the boat to Scotland unfortunately.
What I am after is something that will last 10 years to do all of the south coast, netherlands, belgium, france, channel islands in my weekends and holiday time. When I am maybe thinking about the next stage of my life and retirment and doing a circumnavigation or living 6 months of the year in Greece then we can think about a different boat.
Problem with a big long old MAB is they are money pit in terms of maintenance, moorings everything is exponential.
steveej
Well-Known Member
Yeah did have a look at that one. They are currently 3 and 2 (will be one year older next season). Wife wont even leave the hatch open let alone leave them in a separate self contained until so isnt going to work in the next 5 years or so.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Your 10 year time horizon leads you to spending a bit more on the boat, looking for a well equipped and maintained boat. They are around, and you are perhaps more likely to find them in the early 2000s AWBs, simple because that was a golden age for new boat sales so there is a much bigger choice on the market. For example I was looking today at a Beneteau 311 in Mylor with Ancasta. One owner, retiring from sailing. Asking £35k. Perhaps a bit on the small side but gives an idea of what your money can buy.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 35 fin keel: first reef to windward at 12 knots in any seaway but you can just hold it unreefed to 16-18 knots by feathering/flattening/easing main in flat water and steady wind.
After a time-limited passage from Weymouth to Falmouth into a WSW 6 increasing 7 I can assure you this design does slam, quite horribly. But it got there, despite pretty rubbish factory sails (now replaced). I've done similar windward passages in a Contessa 32 and a Rival 34 and made better speed in much more comfort, athough much more water would have come on deck. And a UFO34 or She 36 would have been even faster, and no less comfortable. But for ordinary family cruising 99.9% of the time the Jeanneau is the better boat. Your suggested option of a Bav 34 is pretty similar.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I raced in a UFO 34 for several years B..dy hard work, heavy & as wet as hell. Not a family boat in any sense of the word. ( unless one wants to rough it of course)
No way as comfortable up wind as my Hanse 311 & i suspect not faster unless it was really windy & most of us do not sail in that sort of weather ( upwind) much if the see the forecast first
rudolph_hart
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with all of that. Most volume manufacturers switched to this type of rig in the 90's, so today you can get one for the price of a MAB
:encouragement:
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
I'm a little surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the four atributes of AWBs that the MAB owners tend to cite as drawbacks:
- skinny bolt on keels
- spade rudders
- saildrives
- shallow, wide, open transom cockpits
And on a personal note, I prefer a tiller to a wheel, which rules out the vast majority of AWBs.
The fact that nobody has raised these issues suggests that they are no longer seen as important. And makes me feel like a dinosaur because I still have reservations about them.
- skinny bolt on keels
- spade rudders
- saildrives
- shallow, wide, open transom cockpits
And on a personal note, I prefer a tiller to a wheel, which rules out the vast majority of AWBs.
The fact that nobody has raised these issues suggests that they are no longer seen as important. And makes me feel like a dinosaur because I still have reservations about them.
{151760}
...
All of the boats you listed will do what you require, as will almost any boat built in the last 30 years. Condition is of far more importance than design, so find a boat you like in good condition and get sailing. If it's more than five years old it will require that things be replaced, so budget for that. Good sailing.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
As with all things, if you look at them from one particular perspective and with zero experience of what you are looking at it might seem baffling. However once you have experience you are quite likely to wonder what all the fuss is about.
You will find that the majority of owners of AWBs have also owned or sailed MABs and would not go back. New owners know little different and just take their boat for what it is.
Just to be clear.
Skinny bolt on keels do not fall off
Spade rudders do not break off (have a look at the construction which explains why)
Saildrives have been in use continually for near 40 years which I guess is long enough to refer to as "old technology"
Not all AWBs have shallow open cockpits, particularly those aimed at family cruising.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Things seem to have moved on. Did a windward passage across Poole bay from Hurst to Poole in my Bav 33. Wind over tide so a bit lumpy particularly off Christchurch Ledge. AW steady 20 knots with gusts. Full sail and making over 5 knots and no slamming or rounding up.
Think the slamming is very boat specific, although the shape of the hull of an AWB tends to slam. My old 37 would slam motoring dead to wind, but the new one is not anywhere near as bad.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
The main reason for fitting saildrives is that it costs the builder less time and skilled labour to install than the traditional shaft drive. Apart from that I do not see any realistic advantages to the end user.
pvb
Well-Known Member
What about the lack of any need for alignment? Or the absence of a leaky sterngland? Or reduced vibration?
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
What about the aluminium alloy leg that is permanently immersed in salt water? Or the expense of regularly changing the anode? Or the unnoticeable ingress of sea water into the gearbox when a seal fails? Or the probability of worse damage (therefore expensive) should the prop foul submerged lines?
Alignment was a 'problem' back in the days of wooden hulls; with FRP and a disk-type flexible coupling (R&D) re-alignment in service has become largely a thing of the past.
A leaky stern gland? I use PTFE packing and, once bedded and adjusted properly there are no leaks. On the other hand, when the seal of a saildrive fails the water goes directly into the gear oil at the bottom of the leg... usually only noticed when a 'milkshake' drains out when changing the oil. No thanks!
As for vibration, that depends upon the rigidity of the bearers and the use of suitable silentbloc mounts. Having said that, every engine has a 'personal' range of RPM (some people refer to it as a 'sweet spot') in which it is not 'happy'; once out of this short range the vibration disappears.
As in most things, one pays one's money and makes one's choice.
pvb
Well-Known Member
The alloy leg is well protected by paint, and has its own anode. The anode should last some years as long as there's no electrical problem, and ordinary props usually need anodes changing too. Water ingress isn't unnoticeable - it's revealed by the condition of the oil when the oil level is routinely checked. Saildrive props are no more prone to picking up lines than ordinary drives, indeed their position closer to the keel may help avoid fouling.
dom
Well-Known Member
Suspect that's the key. Your new boat is by current standards too small for the charter market, leaving the designer -- Farr Design in this case -- to make it sail. Surprise, surprise; they achieved that goal in style, thereby opening a new seam of demand.
Similarly, a Beneteau Oceanis 45 will have three large cabins + en suites for the charter market, while their new foil-assisted Figaro supposedly goes downwind like a bat out of hell. Nautor Swans meanwhile targets the bigger boat corporate racing scene, alongside its trad big cruisers. Different boats for different strokes.
Sticking an AWB label on all of them and then hoping each to share the same characteristics as other so-labelled items is just plain daft.
But it seems to keep people amused
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You have clearly never owned a boat with a saildrive, unlike tens of thousands of others who really don't see the problems that you see. They are almost universally used in charter boats which is the toughest use of a boat you can imagine.
If you just follow these forums, you will see far more problems with shaft drives than with saildrives - alignment problems, noise, vibration, leaky stern glands, worn cutless bearings, collapsed engine mounts etc. Of course many of these failings are because the installations are old or poorly maintained, but the point is there are so many things to go wrong.
In use they are much more pleasant than most shaft installations - quieter, smoother, generally less prop walk, prop wash is parallel with the waterline, easy to fit with a folding or feathering prop and a rope cutter deals effectively with the rare occasion the prop might get fouled. On my last boat I replaced the anode twice in 17 years and the current boat has been in the water for two years and the anode is about 25% eroded.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Well Mr Google turned up this in 10seconds:
http://www.yachtingworld.com/sail-f...techniques-series-part-5-helming-skills-76323
From a Vendee Globe skipper.
http://www.myhanse.com/slamming-hull-strength_topic1893.html
From a marque website.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=yacht slamming to windward&f=false
From a published work: Choosing and Buying a Yacht.
Far better to claim Fifth Amendment in these matters or even claim that you boat is so modern, computer designed and made of the dark materials that hydrodynamics has been turned on it's head.
Few will be convinced but at least they may suspend disbelief
