second hand boat - best age to buy

[ndc333]

So, im looking to get 38-39ft boat, purchase cost is not primary criteria but lifetime is (assume 3 years ownership).

So the question is regards depreciation vs deferred maintenance. Id like to buy where the 'new premium' has disappeared (the steep part of the depreciation curve) but the deferred maintenance has not greatly accrued. Would this be 3, 6, 9, 12 years? I assume at 10 years rigging, sails, electronics etc would begin to require replacement?
I would also be interested in any age which might be expensive (for cars timing belt, brake discs, batteries etc seem to need replacement at 80k miles?)

Im not averse to maintenance, in fact getting a boat that did require straight forward work would be ok if the price is right, but I cannot afford to get a (never ending) project boat.

 

[pcatterall]

its a piece of string question.
much depends on the build quality of the model you buy and then the maintenance/repair/replacement regime by the previous owner.
Some boats may hold their value more because they are popular.
My own boat is nearly 40 years old and over the last five years of my ownership the only parts that have 'failed' have been parts that were bought new in
that period.
Look for the models that suit you and your pocket. read up on any foibles and then look at examples free from worries on the expensive points such as osmosis, engine, sail condition,
etc.

 

[Tranona]

It is impossible to say with any degree of precision because there are so many factors that influence both the loss in capital value and the cost of repairs and replacements, although there are generalisations. The notional loss of capital value is indeed steepest in the first 2 or 3 years for a production boat - somewhere around 20-30%, but most of the gear will be essentially near new. Then the depreciation curve flattens to reach about 40-60% at 10-12 years, by which time electronics are out of date and probably sails need replacing etc, So maintenance costs rise as do replacements if you want to keep the boat up to date.

However, you will find very few "nearly new" boats on the market because such buyers usually have much longer time horizons. More become available after 5/6 years, but currently the choice is limited (at least in the UK) because sales of new boats in the last 10 years have been low and many used boats have been sold to Europe. Brokers will tell you truthfully they are short of later model boats, but there is a good choice in the 10-20 year old range reflecting the high volume of new sales in that decade.

Personally, I think if you have a 10 year time horizon it is best to buy a new boat, which you can spec exactly as you want it. Look after it and you will get the best years of the boat and still command a relatively good price when you sell. This assumes of course that you have the cash to invest. Buying used always means buying somebody else's dream boat which is unlikely to be exactly what you want so you can expect to spend more on it after purchase. You will find the annual cost over the 10 years much the same - just that with the new boat more will be in depreciation and probably no major replacement cost and the used will be less depreciation and more replacement costs - just like a car in principle.

As I understand it you intend living on the boat in the Med. If that is the case, a serious alternative approach is to buy an ex charter boat at about 6 years old. The best companies really look after their boats and they come equipped for the climate and style of sailing. You also save the cost and time of getting the boat from N europe to where you want it. For example Sail Ionian have a 2009 Bavaria 38 for sale for 80000 euros or a 2012 40 for 160K.

Hope this helps.

 

[ndc333]

for the ten year time horizon, this is my latest passion so i put 3 years since i assume ill either keep, quit or upgrade etc. From your numbers it sounds like ~6 years might be a sweet spot, though as you say maybe not so many on the market. I dont assume that an old boat cannot be reliable, just that buying an unknown older boat is too much of a gamble). The point about getting a recent ex charter is very good, though the full cabin layouts i assume dont go well with folding bikes etc. [I realise ill have to make compromises]. on the other hand I suppose any discount in price due to charter history would also come out of the money i could ask for it when i sell. For the reputable companies, just sunsail and moorings or can you suggest how to determine the 'best companies'?

 

[TQA]

My boat is 38 years old. I bought it 8 years ago 6 months after the previous owners completed a major refit including new tanks new standing rigging and running rigging and new sails I have had 8 reliable years continuous cruising.

In my view the best time to buy is after someone else has paid for a major refit and carried out the shake down cruise. Such boats are often found in the 'chicken harbors' on major cruising routes.

 

[ndc333]

> 'chicken harbors' on major cruising routes
but how do you actually find the boat in the first place? - just the major internet sites, or you go looking in person etc?

 

[ashtead]

I suspect that once you put in your desired age , price range , cabin , engine hours cap and need for certain other features for Med the range of vessels is limited particularly if you rule out certain brands. I think starting on sites gives an idea plus visiting second hands shows. Let's assume you want a circa 6 year old boat i.e. From say 2011 or2012 at 40ft . Tranona has set a benchmarkat 160k for a Bav so a range might be a margin around this. I suspect this might give a limited number of details to print off and compare, particularly if you are looking to a limited geographical location?

 

[Tranona]

for the ten year time horizon, this is my latest passion so i put 3 years since i assume ill either keep, quit or upgrade etc. From your numbers it sounds like ~6 years might be a sweet spot, though as you say maybe not so many on the market. I dont assume that an old boat cannot be reliable, just that buying an unknown older boat is too much of a gamble). The point about getting a recent ex charter is very good, though the full cabin layouts i assume dont go well with folding bikes etc. [I realise ill have to make compromises]. on the other hand I suppose any discount in price due to charter history would also come out of the money i could ask for it when i sell. For the reputable companies, just sunsail and moorings or can you suggest how to determine the 'best companies'?

Pros and cons of layouts. at that size though I would prefer the twin aft cabin as that usually means only one head which is all you need and you can use the second aft cabin for storage. That is what we had and it worked well. If you do buy a boat with two heads, one will be smaller than the other and can often be converted to storage.

As to companies, most of them do not actually own the boats but they are owned by individuals. In theory they look after them well, but inevitably some have a hard life and owners may not want to keep them at the end of the contract. With big companies you usually have a better choice of both boats and locations. Not all big operators are internationally known - for example Kiriacoulis and Cosmos in Greece both have large fleets but not always operated under their own names. I chose Sail Ionian as an example because I know their boats are probably the best maintained, and many are privately owned by fussy people who keep an eye on them. They also offer on going guardinage services to people who buy their boats. A couple of weeks' in The Ionian (Corfu, Preveza and Levkas) will give you a good insight into what is available.

 

[thesaintlyone]

Buying a boat is about passion and requirements. Quite frankly just go and look at a lot of boats for sale and you will soon see that you will start to want a particular model because of the looks features and how you feel about that particular model. then find across the various markets the boat of that model that suits your budget and requirements. such as individual equipment included etc

 

[jordanbasset]

I think I was very fortunate with my boat, a Bavaria 33, bought it at three years old at a substantial discount from new. In addition it had lots of extras including a watermaker, electric outboard, arch with solar panels etc. Very happy with her.

But the person who said it is like asking how long a piece of string is was correct. I was fortunate, for some reason the previous German owner of my boat just wanted rid of it asap with no hassle. (may have been domestic problems, not sure)I bought it at full asking price within a week of it going on the market as I was aware from my research in the months previously it was seriously under priced.
My best advice once you have done your research and you see something come up that you want at the price you are happy to pay is to go for it.

 

[[3889]]

for the ten year time horizon, this is my latest passion so i put 3 years since i assume ill either keep, quit or upgrade etc. From your numbers it sounds like ~6 years might be a sweet spot, though as you say maybe not so many on the market. I dont assume that an old boat cannot be reliable, just that buying an unknown older boat is too much of a gamble). The point about getting a recent ex charter is very good, though the full cabin layouts i assume dont go well with folding bikes etc. [I realise ill have to make compromises]. on the other hand I suppose any discount in price due to charter history would also come out of the money i could ask for it when i sell. For the reputable companies, just sunsail and moorings or can you suggest how to determine the 'best companies'?

Personally, i wouldn't co sider an ex charter boat. Engine hours will be deep into 4 figures and the maintenance regime is entirely orientated towards keeping boats operational. Eg Windlass fails on a 2015 boat, replace with one from a 2010 oat thats on the hard.

 

[[70521]]

Hello and welcome to the forum

As others have said above it is a "how long is a piece of string". Personally, I have never bought a boat that is less than 30 years old, boats are very different to motor cars, they are built to last.

I am rather scratching my head here, you state that cost is not an option, but you don't want the cost of a project boat. The project boat will be much cheaper in the long run and you will be able to replace equipment with that you want not the manufactures cost saving cheap stuff.

Any particular reason on the choice of length? For a first boat that is a lot of boat. I moved up from 8.5 to 10 meters and have more than enough space for the sailing I do; usually single handed or two up very, very occasionally four up. Do you have access to a crew or are you planning to race her?

 

[Tranona]

Personally, i wouldn't co sider an ex charter boat. Engine hours will be deep into 4 figures and the maintenance regime is entirely orientated towards keeping boats operational. Eg Windlass fails on a 2015 boat, replace with one from a 2010 oat thats on the hard.

They are not all like that - although some are. You would also be surprised how some privately owned boats - particularly by absentee owners of similar age are neglected. Hours on engines are good for it, much better than fewer hours of the typical weekend usage pattern. My Volvo 2030 in the charter boat I owned did 3500 hours trouble free and was as good as new.

If you apply the same criteria to a charter boat as a private, that is condition and service record you can get good value.

 

[ndc333]

> you state that cost is not an option, but you don't want the cost of a project boat. The project boat will be much cheaper
> in the long run and you will be able to replace equipment with that you want not the manufactures cost saving cheap
> stuff.
I do not own property, no car, no home port. I cannot spend 2 years tinkering. (afford = time/patience and equipment to refit a boat). I do understand the idea of getting a project - build to your ideas and taste and its fun (i watch sail life!), but it does not fit my circumstances or cruising plans.
> Any particular reason on the choice of length? For a first boat that is a lot of boat.
I want to live aboard and have a reasonable level of comfort (and be able to work/study). I would also not like to be alone all the time and be able to take on (free) crew occasionally. Racing for fun and community spirit would be ok. Advice on getting a bow thruster would be welcome.

 

[Tranona]

Advice on getting a bow thruster would be welcome.

Do it. One of my smarter decisions. You learn not to have to use it, but it is great to know it is there for the odd time you need it. Particularly useful when backing up to a quay (very common in the Med) with a cross wind. I have a remote for mine which also does the windlass as sometimes useful when single handing to be able to operate them from anywhere on the boat.

 

[ashtead]

> you state that cost is not an option, but you don't want the cost of a project boat. The project boat will be much cheaper
> in the long run and you will be able to replace equipment with that you want not the manufactures cost saving cheap
> stuff.
I have no fixed abode, no car, no home port. I cannot spend 2 years tinkering. (afford = time/patience and equipment to refit a boat). I do understand the idea of getting a project - build to your ideas and taste and its fun (i watch sail life!), but it does not fit my circumstances or cruising plans.
> Any particular reason on the choice of length? For a first boat that is a lot of boat.
I want to live aboard and have a reasonable level of comfort (and be able to work/study). I would also not like to be alone all the time and be able to take on (free) crew occasionally. Racing for fun and community spirit would be ok. Advice on getting a bow thruster would be welcome.

If you want a bowthruster while others will advise on how to retrofit and various articles published you might be best advised to put that as a criteria for your shopping list and go for one with lowering thruster as opposed to one in a tunnel ideally . Don't know if you would find this though in a former charter yacht in Med though but might be simpler approach. I know of someone who had a retrofit on a jeaneau 375 so maybe you will find a forumite who can give the required costs and info on reliable suppliers who might do this.

 

[Garold]

+1 for the 'how long is a piece of string' but trying to describe what I've noticed in boat prices.....

Most new boats have up to three years of warranty on mechanical equipment. Accordingly, most owners use the manufacturers service agents throughout the warranty period and any repairs are usually done under warranty (I.e. Not dependent upon the owners willingness to spend). On a yacht this period usually results in a loss of about 25-30% so money to be saved here probably comes without a great deal of increased cost of fixing things.

On average the depreciation reduces a bit after the first 2-3 years to something like 5-10% per year. However, I've noticed that another step can occur when a new model comes out. This often then seems to make the older model less desirable and with this comes a softening of prices. Average model life varies but 5-7 years seems common. So, most yachts that are about 7 years old seem significantly cheaper than the same size of yachts that are 2-3 years old. I think that most well kept yachts at 5-7 years are still not likely to have a huge list of required upgrades. They seem good value if you compare what the boat would cost 'if it were new today' (usually about 40-50% of new replacement price).

At about ten years old, many yachts begin to show their age through the electronics, rigging, sails, teak decks etc. Though they are far from uneconomic the price should reflect the possibility of an increasing to-do list. Prices often reduce noticeably at this point and some boats can begin the period where they may be difficult to sell at what feels like a reasonable price. A proportion of the job list is usually optional e.g. Some are happy with older sails whereas others are offended by any sign of sagging cloth.

Notwithstanding the above, other factors can creep in to yacht prices like state of the economy, exchange rates, and just finding a great boat that you think is worth paying a good price for.

Just to be clear, I'm in Tranonas camp when he says that buying a new boat enables you to spec it exactly as you wish. If you can keep it say ten years then the depreciation costs and running costs are well spread and digestible. Also finding a second owner boat that suits you has a significant element of luck. Unlike Tranona though, my needs and desires have changed regularly and I have owned four brand new boats in ten years which is costly.

One final thing that comes to mind is that many yachts use the same components (winches, rigging, toilets, pumps etc), and these are widely available so repair or replacement isn't impossible wherever you base the yacht.

Garold

 

[Kelpie]

> 'chicken harbors' on major cruising routes
but how do you actually find the boat in the first place? - just the major internet sites, or you go looking in person etc?

+1 where are these boats? I've not seen much evidence of them on e.g. yachtworld.

 

[Tranona]

+1 where are these boats? I've not seen much evidence of them on e.g. yachtworld.

Chicken harbours are strategically placed on the major cruising routes convenient for when the dream ends or the wife walks! Ports around the entrance to the Med are typical examples and many in the Caribbean for US based equivalents.

 

[prv]

go for one with lowering thruster as opposed to one in a tunnel ideally . Don't know if you would find this though in a former charter yacht in Med though

The last two yachts my parents chartered in the Med (one Greece, think the other was Croatia) had lowering thrusters. Obviously that's not a valid sample, but they do exist.

Pete