Second forestay and lines aft advice please.

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Lee_Shaw

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Hello. I'm setting up my boat to make it easier for me to sail single handed.

My two main additions are to be an additional forestay and I'm gonna lead lines aft to the cockpit.

The extra forestay (my boat does not have r.reefing). I was gonna connect this at deck level to the stem head which currently takes the existing forestay.

I was wondering:-

(i) Would this put an intolerable amount of extra load on the stem? I'm not intending to fly sails from both at the same time.

(ii) What is my best bet for attaching it to the top of the mast, should I move it down from the top slightly, like inner stay for storm jib on r/reefed sloop, or adapt the existing fitting to take two forestays?

(iii) Will I need to beef up my backstay?

(iv) Does anyone have this setup or any experience of problems arising from it or any advice before I start?

Leading my lines aft. Main (halyard, cunningham, 6 x reef lines), topping lift, kicker, Gen/jibs (2 x halyard)

(a) I have an internal moulding and ideally I would prefer not to cut this up too much. If the blocks at the foot of the mast and the winches on the coachroof are bolted through/backplated, would I be ok to fit the organisers and clutches with s/tappers (sqirt some thickened epoxy into the void?) as the load is travelling mainly horizontally and low down, close to the fixing point? (less leverage??)

(b) Anyone got any advice before I start?

Sorry there's so many questions, thanks for any help.
 
If you do not have roller reefing, why are you setting up a second forestay? is it to be able to set a double forestay rig?

Selden sell a fitting for their masts that places a second forestay attachment point abt 300mm below the first - but this is to fit a stormsail/upwind sail where the genoa is inadequate. That doesnt mean that you couldnt use this for a second genoa, but it does demand a decent deck fitting. After all, the existing fitting is designed to cope with the loads from a single genoa, not a double genoa.

I have also seen a side-by-side setup taken from the standard masthead fitting and down to the standard bow fitting, but that particular boat was known for having a smaller sail plan than it really should.

If you want to make a boat easy for single handing, then a roller reefed foresail is a good starting point
 
We have twin forestays side by side. A Y shaped fitting at top and bottom attaches the forestays to the standard mast fitting and chain plate. These fittings were made up by a local rigger. The only change we had to make was to use smaller wire to get some tension on the forestays. Even so the luff sags more than with a single forestay but it's not really a problem on our boat.

The main reason for the twin forestays is for running with twin headsails, but when changing a headsail singlehanded it means you can hank on the new sail before lowering the old on, which makes the operation much easier.

I would have a chat with a rigger before you change anything.
 
My Race boat ...

Had twin forestays ..... basically had a V plate at top and bottom .... to take single attachment to top of mast - then split to the two stays, at base to stemhead a single attachment and then split to the two stays.

Normally the genny was hoisted on both stays withn alternate hanks to stays ... this gave strongest set-up and stopped too much luff curvature. BUt if it was expected to change sials during the race etc. then one stay was used and second sail could then be hanked on, hoisted and first dropped without losing speed etc.

But of course this is just a description of our set-up and for example ...
 
why a second forestay and not roller reefing ?
I thought the idea of second forestay was for fast replacement of sails - new one up whilst old one up, then old one down - this is a tricky thing with a decent racing crew. Singlehanded either roller reefing or a bare headed change will always be faster then messing about with 2 sails, hanks and keep you off the foredeck.

The positions for the aft led lines must be reinforced.
 
Our boat is ...

.. another twin forestay non-roller reefing boat, we leave two foresails rigged when sailing, the unused one lashed to the guardrail. She has a plate at the top and a forestay attached to either side of the stemhead roller at the bottom. There are also two backstays. The big advantage is when changing foresails, the only real disadvantage is getting a decent luff tension, although getting the anchor between the forestays requires a bit of planning as well.
 
Re: My Race boat ...

Thanks for the replies, my main worry seems to be getting sufficient tension on the stays.

I haven't got r/r mainly because I can't afford it. I would like to be able to have my storm jib hanked on ready, with sheets in place, when single handed and I think the weather might pick up, as a safety precaution. I could also use it to change from my genoa to working jib etc. On my last s/h trip I had to change down to storm jib in a hurry and it was a right pain as a very high speed ferry turned up as I was on the foredeck in accordance with sod's law. It looked like it may come close enough to cause me problems and I had to abandon my job, as I was crawling back to man the tiller I thought that I should maybe have a better plan for such eventualities. Hence the twin forestay thing.

The boat is not used for racing like yours was Nigel, but I like a decent sail shape, Slowly and Nigel, on your boats how bad was the sag in the luff? Was there anything you did, or think could be done, to combat this in addition to thinner wire? Thinner wire sounds a bit dodgy no?

Is a removable, second forestay a viable option?

Thanks again.
 
[ QUOTE ]
why a second forestay and not roller reefing ?
I thought the idea of second forestay was for fast replacement of sails - new one up whilst old one up, then old one down - this is a tricky thing with a decent racing crew. Singlehanded either roller reefing or a bare headed change will always be faster then messing about with 2 sails, hanks and keep you off the foredeck.

The positions for the aft led lines must be reinforced.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is used for that but also to enable easier change of fooresail I am thinking because the last used sail can be sheeted/downdauled/lashed and the new one raised witho9ut having to mess about with all those hanks. Spesh if it's blowing and a ferry turns up doing 30 odd knots with a wake like a tidal wave.
 
Re: Our boat is ...

Thanks for the reply dave, that's what I was intending to do.

Have you used thinner wire on your forestays? Also is the twin backstays an original feature or a mod. pertaining to the twin forestays?
 
I can't imagine a dual forestay set up being worth while for single handed sailing. Your safest bet would be to have a fractional rig with a large main and smaller jib so that the jib could be carried into stronger winds while reefing the main. (have a line back to the cockpit to pull the jib down and secure) If you are stuck with a mast head rig and smaller main then you will be forced into the roller reefing jib although I dislike them myself.
As for attaching winches, jammers, organisers and blocks on the cabin roof. you might consider getting some Stainless steel bar about 5mm thick 15mm wide cut about 50 mm long into which you tap a suitable thread for the bolt you wish to use. you need to cut out a hole in the cabin top big enough to intoduce this bar into the cavity under the roof and insert the bolt so that the bar straddles the hole and pulls up to attach the winch. You will need to add tiny holes in the bar to temporarily fix a wire to juggle it into place. In the case of a winch with 4 screws you use 2 bars with holes at each end to take the attach screws. it will leave 2 big holes (under the winch) which should be filled with epoxy or polyester before finally fixing the winch etc. It will work however it may be preferable to cut an inspection port in the liner and puting a removable cover over the hole so that then you can use normal nuts and washers. For the organiser (pulley box) I think you will find normal metal thread like whitworth or metric that go into a thread you have tapped into the fibreglass will be adequate.
One other consideration at the price of jammers and organiser you may consider fitting more smaller winches on the cabin top. I use 4 and it works really well (on a 21 fter) for reefing from the cockpit. Sure they were cheaper 20 years ago but then every thing is expensive these days, good luck olewill
 
Luff tension ...

The curve was significant and we couldn't tighten further without causing worry about the amount of tension being placed ...

It seems that having two requires a greater tension and this causes sweaty-palms when tightening up !!

I have looked through various photos taken of her when sailing and about the best I can find .....>

Eola-StV.jpg


If you look very carefully at the leading edge of the sail - you can just make out the twin stays and the shackle to the V plate. The sail of course goes lower than this V plate by virtue of the tack and first hank piston being just above the V ...

For a cruising boat the amount of sag in the luff would be acceptable I feel unless perfection is called for - then of course best is a twin groove foil !!
 
Re: Our boat is ...

Hi Lee,

I use 5mm s/s, which I think is the original spec. for a single stay. I prefer the strength to any gain in luff tension. Also, if necessary, any one of the two will hold the mast up and allow us to sail. I think the luff tension problem is inherent in the design, you need to tighten them up to exactly the same tension, which is damn near impossible. For us, the twin backstay probably exacerbates as the traditional way to increase luff tension underway is to increase backstay tension. Again, I look on it as a "belts and braces" type of mod. that is acceptable on a cruiser. The picture Nigel shows is familiar, that is the sort of sag we see. It affects pointing ability more than anything, and in heavy weather she will sail noticably faster on one tack, depending on which stay the jib is set on. By then though we're usually going fast enough not to be too worried about the odd knot or so. I'm not convinced that the sail is setting significantly worse than the average cruiser's half-rolled furling genoa though.

As far as the comments on singlehanding go, I found it invaluable. I now sail 2-handed, with my wife, but single handed I could drop a loop of rope over the tiller and walk forward to drop the genoa. Then tie it to the rail with the ties left on the guardrail and untie the jib, as the boat was held hove-to or slowly moving head to wind. Then swap the sheet and halliard, hoist the sail and get back to the cockpit to sheet in and resume course with a minimum of hassle. No wrestling with sailbags or wet sails, and a lot less to go wrong than with furling gear. The last bit doesn't seem to bother 90% of other cruisers, so that part is just personal preference.

Dave
 
<(i) Would this put an intolerable amount of extra load on the stem? I'm not intending to fly sails from both at the same time.>

I have twin forestays rigged like that and have no problems even when I fly two foresails at the same time.
 
<I can't imagine a dual forestay set up being worth while for single handed sailing. >

I sail single handed a lot and having two foresails set up, one in use and one lashed to the guard rail, does make a difference when you need to change sails.
 
G'day Steve,

I have seen a very nice twin forestay set-up that had a pivot at the base, the owner claimed it reduced the sag in the forestay, might be worth following up.


<<Would this put an intolerable load on the stem? I'm not intending to fly sails from both at the same time>>
Best if both come to the same point as did the one described above, and there is no reason why you can't fly 2 headsails in lighter conditions, makes for easy single handed sailing, with no main up she will steer herself.

<<What is my best bet for attaching it to the top of the mast>>
The one I saw had the second stay below the normal masthead stay, so adapting the lower fitting would work.

<<Will I need to beef up my backstay?>>
Only if you thing it's a bit under engineered, I would not expect the loading to be any greater.

<<If the blocks at the foot of the mast and the winches on the coachroof are bolted through/backplated, would I be ok to fit the organisers and clutches with s/tappers (sqirt some thickened epoxy into the void?) as the load is travelling mainly horizontally and low down, close to the fixing point? (less leverage??)>>
Clutches will have to be thru' bolted and plated, but this can be done without making an ugly mess inside, You only need small holes to do the nuts up with a socket and a slot to slide the plate in on it's end, a simple cover plate of Formica with rounded corners is then glued over the holes and a dab of sikaflex around the edge to tidy it up.

And for what it's worth I think single handed sailing should be banned, not sharing this much fun with others should also be listed as a sin.

Avagoodweekend.
 
Sag in forestay and pivot .......

I'm just trying to figure out how a pivot would reduce sag ?? The problem as we found is that you need to tension each stay as if it was a single - this increases the load on the deck + mast fittings irrespective of single or dual attachments .... This then is unacceptable loading ... well we thought so when tensioning !! A pivot ?? How can that improve it as you still have the two stays ??

The best way I have seen really is the twin groove foil and there are various types ... groove 180 degrees from each other ... limited benefit but good for twin headsail on a run .... then there is the grooves about 25 - 30 degrees from each other which will give maximum benefit ......

Bare wire stays will always sag I believe .... but worth the effort ...
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciated.

Having heard the testimonials I'm defo gonna give the extra forestay a try.

Thanks for the piccy Nigel, illustrates the concept very well as I hadn't seen the setup bfore. Just one query, you say that the tack is below the V section which is apparant in the picture, but what isn't quite so clear is that you say the first piston is above the V. In the picture it looks like it's below the V. Is it just my eyesight/ignorance of how the system works? or a typo? Is that the V in between the tack and the fsrst hank or the 1st second hank? Thanks.

Also guys, it seems that everyone has the V at the top and the bottom and I assume one bottlescrew to tighten both. Would the sail be too skew wiff if the second stay was fitted to the other side of the stem head bit that keeps the chain in place (about 2 1/2" off the centre line) and attached at the top of the mast on a V fitting as normal. (Nothing else on my boat is level/symmetric, how they were built?? - any H27 owners out there got a symmetric boat??) Wouldn't this make it easier to keep the luff from sagging and balance the tension of the two stays?

Thanks again for the replies I gota go home now so will check in tomorrow. Not being rude no internet at home.

Steve
 
Lee
No need to attach a second forestay.......simply hank on your storm
jib under bottom hank of set jib....have sheets attached to this storm jib running through separate blocks and back to cockpit......when time comes to change, drop headsail and stow, move halyard to storm jib and hoist....all done with...simple and no complication......
I have tried this and it works

Gordon
 
Mmmm as far as I remember ...

I've sold the boat now so have to rely on memory ...

But I am sure the first piston hank was above the V ... the piccie above is not so clear there and I think what you see is part of the V

As to the bottle-screw .... yes there was only one that tightened both stays via the bottom V ....

I wish I had a better piccie to illustrate the set-up .... maybe this if you right click save and expand it a bit ... >>

being_readied.jpg


The boat here is pictured just after launch and having sat in slings for 4 hours while seams took up .... she still has a pump in her to keep water level down INSIDE !! She is strip pine on elm and oak and needs about 24 hrs to take up seams fully ..... then she is dry as a proverbial bone !
 
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