Sealine S23 advice and help needed

whisper said:
Um , I wouldn't be advertising this if I was you because presumably you are not paying the correct duty at that price.
HMRC may well read what's on here.
If you are paying duty at the 60:40 split rate then I appologise for being presumptuous.
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The correct tax is paid on that diesel. If you look for the right supplier (think tractor dealer or similar) their base price is so low that even with the duty added for a 60/40 split you still come out at 70ppl. You do need to trust your dealer though that the supply is of a good quality diesel. We personally know our supplier so we have no worries.
 
AndieMac said:
A comment I have heard before on a number of occasions, just like the 'cracked chines and strakes' comments about Sealines from other British boaters.

While experienced boaters like Neale of this forum are prepared to go bashing their way across the channel in his 24 foot Bayliner, I would be reasonably assured the brand is quite sound.
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Im also pretty sure that the Bayliner brand is quite sound, however there is no comparison with the build quality, not only of the hull and superstructure but also of the interior of the boats. Bayliners are a good boat, but they are built to a tighter budget which shows in their quality of fixtures and fittings and materials used. There is nothing wrong with this they allow a lot of people to boat on a budget and they offer a lot of boat for the money. One area we have noticed a big difference in is the thickness of gel coat when comparing US boats with the UK equivalents.

There are also a lot of complaints from owners of older Sealines (early-mid 90's) of cracked chines and stress cracking in stringer locations. This seems to have been sorted with their newer models as there dont as yet appear to be any complaints of the same problems. The problems with the older boats also seem to be pretty hit and miss and we dont know how much of that can be attributed to over enthusiastic owners of these boats and their high speed antics in unsuitable conditions.

It is of course horses for courses and everyone will favour a given brand or model of boat. For us the Sealine offered the best value for money and the best accomodation and facilities for the money. We dont enjoy marina hopping.
 
dannie said:
After looking at the video link of windemere marina I scoured them all. Look at 4 mins 17, that is the boat I have been looking at over to one side!! What to do now?? It has not had new carpets or anything so looks like it was just dragged over a bit. Should we move on or try to get the price down and insist they survey it and service it etc? My heart says leave it
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=GB#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=7eMGTBHb3sE
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I would be tempted to leave this one well alone. There are plenty of other S23's for sale around the country that have been serviced on time and have not been subjected to flooding and the possible damage resulting from this. It looks as though there will have been considerable stress placed on the cleats and possible water ingress to the engine bay and bilge compartments. Who knows what damage may have occured to the wiring if the water did get into these areas.

Here there are a whole list of them for sale

http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/searchr...th&lengthunits=Feet&boatstoview=all&x=30&y=17

Some are better value than others. The 2002 model at Burton Waters for sale fo £34k has recently sold for £32.5k for example and is a good clean boat.
 
AndieMac said:
While experienced boaters like Neale of this forum are prepared to go bashing their way across the channel in his 24 foot Bayliner, I would be reasonably assured the brand is quite sound.
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Good comment AndieMac.
Bayliners are defo the Ford of the boating world, but any Ford will run happily around town or burn along the motorway.
Quite simply it will do exactly the same job as the Mercedes and even the Bentley just with a bit less glitz.

(subliminal message to OP who has chosen a cruiser... check out the Bayliner 285 on Parkstone Bay Yachts brokerage listings... - OK cockpit with a lot more space than almost anything in it's class, good helm and VAST interior - "Now you are back in the room")

I certainly do not agree that Sealine make a better product than many of the US brands. What an absolute load of tosh. They make a well built product on a par with many other production line boats, but no better than a Jeanneau or a Regal or a Sea Ray or a Cranchi etc etc. What one person thinks is well put together another will tear apart and snear at. In many instances it is the best boat IF it is the one you like the most. It probably isn't actually any better or worse in reality, but it is the very best boat because you say so.

The one comment which I must pick up is the one about thicker gel coat. With the utmost respect, what on earth is that comment about?
You certainly don't want overly thick gel coat. Being completely brittle it will snap and cause cracks and crazing. You want a protective layer of gel coat. Enough to stop water absorbtion and enough to keep a nice shine and good cosmetic look. Too thick is asking for trouble, particularly around any radius that may flex as the boat moves.
 
Sealine S23

Hi Dan

Nothing wrong with this choice of boat, for this type of purpose. I had the original Sealine 24 back in the eighties !! Went from Southampton to Torquay with wife n child and back in my first season. The older ones are better, (miles better) than the newer ones. 2003 will be ok because it will have had some owners who will have tinkered and added and maintained, (we hope).
Don't buy the US offerings.
Cameron
 
CX54WEK said:
Im also pretty sure that the Bayliner brand is quite sound, however there is no comparison with the build quality, not only of the hull and superstructure but also of the interior of the boats. Bayliners are a good boat, but they are built to a tighter budget which shows in their quality of fixtures and fittings and materials used.
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I have always been amazed at how people struggle to separate the trim costs from the hulls etc

Bayliner were the first production line manufacturer to use vinylester resin over polyester and introduce many other production techniques that are now widespread.

Their core market was the US, and fast fishing boats, which were used more, harder and in tougher conditions than any cruisers!

Within the Brunswick group they were given the Skoda market, rather than the VW or Audi brands (to stick with a single group and the Auto analogy) although at one point a larger cruiser range was produced (but with altered branding) - it may still exist but I am out of touch.

thinner cushions, ply not hardwood, less mirrors etc are the sort of differences. A far better auto analogy would be that you are getting the basic model, whilst other brands are marketed as the L, GL, Ghia and Ghia-X.
 
dannie said:
After looking at the video link of windemere marina I scoured them all. Look at 4 mins 17, that is the boat I have been looking at over to one side!! What to do now?? It has not had new carpets or anything so looks like it was just dragged over a bit. Should we move on or try to get the price down and insist they survey it and service it etc? My heart says leave it
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=GB#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=7eMGTBHb3sE
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I woud be worried about the credibility of the broker if they are willing to try to sell this boat without mentioning that it had been partially flooded or involved in this flooding incident. How can you trust them to do the service properly etc. Their credibility must surely be in question ?:confused:
 
Nautibusiness said:
Good comment AndieMac.
Bayliners are defo the Ford of the boating world, but any Ford will run happily around town or burn along the motorway.
Quite simply it will do exactly the same job as the Mercedes and even the Bentley just with a bit less glitz.

(subliminal message to OP who has chosen a cruiser... check out the Bayliner 285 on Parkstone Bay Yachts brokerage listings... - OK cockpit with a lot more space than almost anything in it's class, good helm and VAST interior - "Now you are back in the room")

I certainly do not agree that Sealine make a better product than many of the US brands. What an absolute load of tosh. They make a well built product on a par with many other production line boats, but no better than a Jeanneau or a Regal or a Sea Ray or a Cranchi etc etc. What one person thinks is well put together another will tear apart and snear at. In many instances it is the best boat IF it is the one you like the most. It probably isn't actually any better or worse in reality, but it is the very best boat because you say so.

The one comment which I must pick up is the one about thicker gel coat. With the utmost respect, what on earth is that comment about?
You certainly don't want overly thick gel coat. Being completely brittle it will snap and cause cracks and crazing. You want a protective layer of gel coat. Enough to stop water absorbtion and enough to keep a nice shine and good cosmetic look. Too thick is asking for trouble, particularly around any radius that may flex as the boat moves.
Click to expand...

Yes but it is nice to be able to flat down minor scuffs and still have some gel coat left to polish back up rather than having to start applying gel coat filler or getting in the pros to do the job. We have managed to repair minor scuffs on our boat with no filler whilst similar repairs on friends US boats have ended in proffesional repairs as the gel coat has been worn through revealing the matting beneath.

We have friends who are more than happy with their US boats, that has never been in question. There are also those who have not been happy with them also. The numbers of boats Bayliner chuck out per year and sell pay testimone to their following, however they are not for everybody. Some people prefer a slightly plusher finish to their boats.

Again with the up most of respect for the US brands the OP has asked for a diesel cruiser. A diesel in a Sea Ray, Cranchi or Jeanneau pushes the price right out of the range of being good value for money. US boats are good value for money with petrol installations, with diesels they start to look over priced for the package you get. The Regal as far as i am concerned doesnt even enter the same league (again siad with the up most respect for their owners). We know a couple who own one and the practicalities of it are ridiculous. Accessing the bow is interesting in itself!!!
 
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CX54WEK said:
Yes but it is nice to be able to flat down minor scuffs and still have some gel coat left to polish back up rather than having to start applying gel coat filler or getting in the pros to do the job. We have managed to repair minor scuffs on our boat with no filler whilst similar repairs on friends US boats have ended in proffesional repairs as the gel coat has been worn through revealing the matting beneath.

We have friends who are more than happy with their US boats, that has never been in question. There are also those who have not been happy with them also. The numbers of boats Bayliner chuck out per year and sell pay testimone to their following, however they are not for everybody. Some people prefer a slightly plusher finish to their boats.

Again with the up most of respect for the US brands the OP has asked for a diesel cruiser. A diesel in a Sea Ray, Cranchi or Jeanneau pushes the price right out of the range of being good value for money. US boats are good value for money with petrol installations, with diesels they start to look over priced for the package you get. The Regal as far as i am concerned doesnt even enter the same league (again siad with the up most respect for their owners). We know a couple who own one and the practicalities of it are ridiculous. Accessing the bow is interesting in itself!!!
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As I said... owners always believe they have the best.
Some of us are required to go on almost any boat in nearly any conditions and with the boat in nearly any condition... we get to see the differences and the similarities.
Not owning a Sealine, Sea Ray, Regal or Bayliner, but having driven many hundreds I feel reasonably qualified to discuss each ones merits and disadvantages.
The Sealine S23 / S25 is a nice cruiser. Way too cramped for my own personal liking and I would never choose to own a Sealine as I personally believe they are way over priced from the start (hence you get trapped by the Sealine mentality "We'll give you your money back in 18 months when you trade up" - that's nothing to do with the boat's quality and all to do with the massive over pricing to start with.
As for the Regal. Maybe it isn't the GhiaX that Duncan was describing, but it most definitely is on a par with a Sealine in build and has a considerably superior hull. I was never a great fan of crawling through windscreens to access the bow, but now it doesn't phase me and in some respects it is a darn sight easier than a skinny side deck with the canvas up.

Horses for course and each to their own, but a few brands I would be pleased to own and others I wouldn't entertain. I would be pleased to own some of the Fords and Skodas that are out there as I would be very aware of what I was getting for my money and that is a boat that does exactly the same job, sometimes better and often with vastly better facilities, just produced with a little more plastic. Don't knock it until you've tried it and don't believe the hype that owners create for themselves. Of course it's the best if YOU own it!
 
Nautibusiness said:
As I said... owners always believe they have the best.
Some of us are required to go on almost any boat in nearly any conditions and with the boat in nearly any condition... we get to see the differences and the similarities.
Not owning a Sealine, Sea Ray, Regal or Bayliner, but having driven many hundreds I feel reasonably qualified to discuss each ones merits and disadvantages.
The Sealine S23 / S25 is a nice cruiser. Way too cramped for my own personal liking and I would never choose to own a Sealine as I personally believe they are way over priced from the start (hence you get trapped by the Sealine mentality "We'll give you your money back in 18 months when you trade up" - that's nothing to do with the boat's quality and all to do with the massive over pricing to start with.
As for the Regal. Maybe it isn't the GhiaX that Duncan was describing, but it most definitely is on a par with a Sealine in build and has a considerably superior hull. I was never a great fan of crawling through windscreens to access the bow, but now it doesn't phase me and in some respects it is a darn sight easier than a skinny side deck with the canvas up.

Horses for course and each to their own, but a few brands I would be pleased to own and others I wouldn't entertain. I would be pleased to own some of the Fords and Skodas that are out there as I would be very aware of what I was getting for my money and that is a boat that does exactly the same job, sometimes better and often with vastly better facilities, just produced with a little more plastic. Don't knock it until you've tried it and don't believe the hype that owners create for themselves. Of course it's the best if YOU own it!
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Thats just it though, we do get to try the others out. We have a wide range of friends with a wide range of boats and we all from time to time go out with each other on others boats. It is a good way of getting to know what would and wouldnt work for you.

For us the walk through windscreens are a no no. We have a lot of locks within the vicinity of the marina and scaling a sloping coach roof in wet and windy conditions with inadequate handrailing to reach the bow isnt my idea of safe, the smaller regal is really bad for bow access. If you are any where other than flat calm conditions reaching the bow is not advisable. On the Sealine you have a walkway and safe high handrailing reaching all the way to the deck access. The canopy takes account of the bow access (depending on which version of the hoods you have) by having a zip in the right place so that the piece adjacent the access to the walkway is cleared away.

We found that the Bayliner 245 in particular is very light and anything but a very gentle breeze sends it off course immediately. Not good in tight marinas.

The fact that these boats (S23/25) hold their money is testimant to how popular they are. Not everybody wanting one can be wrong. The dealers/brokers dont need to offer deals on these boats they sell anyway and on the whole pretty quickly as well. As for Sealines being overpriced, that is of course a matter of opinion, however the fact that they sell for that money really proves it wrong. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
 
CX54WEK said:
The correct tax is paid on that diesel. If you look for the right supplier (think tractor dealer or similar) their base price is so low that even with the duty added for a 60/40 split you still come out at 70ppl. You do need to trust your dealer though that the supply is of a good quality diesel. We personally know our supplier so we have no worries.
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Well in that case, well done you.
The suppliers of farm diesel in our area want nothing to do with the marine (60:40) business.
In fact a couple had never heard of it.
 
CX54WEK said:
Thats just it though, we do get to try the others out. We have a wide range of friends with a wide range of boats and we all from time to time go out with each other on others boats. It is a good way of getting to know what would and wouldnt work for you.

For us the walk through windscreens are a no no. We have a lot of locks within the vicinity of the marina and scaling a sloping coach roof in wet and windy conditions with inadequate handrailing to reach the bow isnt my idea of safe, the smaller regal is really bad for bow access. If you are any where other than flat calm conditions reaching the bow is not advisable. On the Sealine you have a walkway and safe high handrailing reaching all the way to the deck access. The canopy takes account of the bow access (depending on which version of the hoods you have) by having a zip in the right place so that the piece adjacent the access to the walkway is cleared away.

We found that the Bayliner 245 in particular is very light and anything but a very gentle breeze sends it off course immediately. Not good in tight marinas.

The fact that these boats (S23/25) hold their money is testimant to how popular they are. Not everybody wanting one can be wrong. The dealers/brokers dont need to offer deals on these boats they sell anyway and on the whole pretty quickly as well. As for Sealines being overpriced, that is of course a matter of opinion, however the fact that they sell for that money really proves it wrong. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
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I looked at an S23 before buying a 24footer a couple of boats ago. One of the reasons for discounting it was the side walkway was so narrow I didn't want SWMBO using it, fine if you're a ballet dancer, not so good if you're a reluctant swimmer. Walkthru screen every time for us. At that point we opted for a Searay 240. With a Diesel it was a little more money than the S23 but the build quality could not be faulted. Cat amongst pigeons time, I believed the finish to be better than the S23.
 
This may have been suggested already, but my quick scan through the thread hasn't found anything relating to the Jeanneau cap camarat the 755 I would say would provide you with most of the things you are after:

Lots of socialising space in the cockpit (seating for 7-8)
Large sunpad for soaking up the sun
spacious 2 berth cabin (very large double berth)
proper sea toilet
Sink/portable gas stove/fridge

Plenty of storage and build quality seems pretty good

Only possible downside is its powered by a petrol outboard, but really for use on windermere I can't see why that would be an issue!!
 
Ianj68 said:
I looked at an S23 before buying a 24footer a couple of boats ago. One of the reasons for discounting it was the side walkway was so narrow I didn't want SWMBO using it, fine if you're a ballet dancer, not so good if you're a reluctant swimmer. Walkthru screen every time for us. At that point we opted for a Searay 240. With a Diesel it was a little more money than the S23 but the build quality could not be faulted. Cat amongst pigeons time, I believed the finish to be better than the S23.
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One side walkway is wider than the other. You have to be a ballet dancer for one side (which is why the table is that isde) but even the OH with his clown feet can get around the other side without falling off/in. IMO there is more chance of falling in whilst walking/slipping down the cabin roof. There are no handholds on the walk throughs until you are at the bow.

On build/finish quality, horses for courses again but we looked at a Searay 240 for sale at the same brokerage as our S23 and discounted it on the layout (with particular note to the midships access), lack of a galley and general finish. We certainly wouldnt have paid more for a diesel one than the Sealine. They have a distinct lack of cleats and the cleats they do have are not well positioned (the same seems to go for most US boats) and are so small you struggle to get the ropes tied off sufficiently. There are precious few places to hang fenders from and they have a large area from the "bow rails" to the rear cleat where there is no where to hang a fender at all. Not so good when moored against dodgy pontoons or rafted with boats of a disimilar shape.

Each to their own. These are of course our opinions.
 
CX54WEK said:
One side walkway is wider than the other. You have to be a ballet dancer for one side (which is why the table is that isde) but even the OH with his clown feet can get around the other side without falling off/in. IMO there is more chance of falling in whilst walking/slipping down the cabin roof. There are no handholds on the walk throughs until you are at the bow.

On build/finish quality, horses for courses again but we looked at a Searay 240 for sale at the same brokerage as our S23 and discounted it on the layout (with particular note to the midships access), lack of a galley and general finish. We certainly wouldnt have paid more for a diesel one than the Sealine. They have a distinct lack of cleats and the cleats they do have are not well positioned (the same seems to go for most US boats) and are so small you struggle to get the ropes tied off sufficiently. There are precious few places to hang fenders from and they have a large area from the "bow rails" to the rear cleat where there is no where to hang a fender at all. Not so good when moored against dodgy pontoons or rafted with boats of a disimilar shape.

Each to their own. These are of course our opinions.
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I'm aware that one walk way is wider. I just can't see how a walkway can be considered safe on a boat without an arch and with a beam of 8'. Personally I would rather slip on my backside on the coachroof than fall in, but hey, that's just my preference.

It's been a while since we had the 240 but I don't recall a lack of cleats. Bow, midships and two at the stern. Maybe you were looking at a very old model or not a 240 at all.

A case of agreeing I think
 
Ianj68 said:
I'm aware that one walk way is wider. I just can't see how a walkway can be considered safe on a boat without an arch and with a beam of 8'. Personally I would rather slip on my backside on the coachroof than fall in, but hey, that's just my preference.

It's been a while since we had the 240 but I don't recall a lack of cleats. Bow, midships and two at the stern. Maybe you were looking at a very old model or not a 240 at all.

A case of agreeing I think
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Nope it was definatly a 240 and is was of the same era as our S23 (early 2000's). I dont know where you are coming from with the no arch thing. The S23 has a substantial stainless steel arch with full height hoods. This provides ample places to get a firm handhold with the hoods both up and down.

The 240 has got cleats front, midships and rear but thet are so poorly positioned as to be next to useless and they are very small. You struggle to get both a fender rope and mooring line around the same cleat. On top of that they feel very insignificant and flimsy.

This was the model we looked at

http://www.superior-boats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/1996-sea-ray-240-025.jpg
 
Every owner owns the very best boat and woebetide anyone who disagrees.

I personally would never own an S23 and never have. I find them tippy, under powered with the KAD32, too crammed and the side decks horrid.

Cleats aren't too bad mind.
But then never had a problem with the other Euro or American cruisers. At the end of the day, simply think OXO when tieing off and you could use the Queen Mary's mooring lines on most boats.

My own boat is THE very best boat on the water, but wouldn't be right for the OP.
I do like the sound of the Cap Camarat 755WA though. Hadn't even thought about that. Offers a bit of everything, separate heads and all. They do look absolute pants with a Camper Canvas though.
 
Chas25 said:
This may have been suggested already, but my quick scan through the thread hasn't found anything relating to the Jeanneau cap camarat the 755 I would say would provide you with most of the things you are after:

Lots of socialising space in the cockpit (seating for 7-8)
Large sunpad for soaking up the sun
spacious 2 berth cabin (very large double berth)
proper sea toilet
Sink/portable gas stove/fridge

Plenty of storage and build quality seems pretty good

Only possible downside is its powered by a petrol outboard, but really for use on windermere I can't see why that would be an issue!!
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A much better handling boat than the S23 by far, but that might not be an issue on Windemere.
 
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