Sealine for sale again

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It's insolvent ( basically without help of parent Co)

Whilst I agree with the rest of your analysis, I think you have to be careful about using damaging words like that, Portofino. There is no suggestion that Sealine is insolvent with or without the guarantees of its parent company. We should also bear in mind that the jobs of a loyal workforce in Kidderminster are potentially at risk here

I Predict Fairline next in the financial stocks ., 2014 ish ?

Probably true. I think 4 was always going to become 2 as a result of this recession

 

[Portofino]

"We should also bear in mind that the jobs of a loyal workforce in Kidderminster are potentially at risk here"

Ok - Point taken, but think of real life coffee machine/ canteen chit chat amongst the work force -they know .
Comet,Jessops,and HMV, went through this ,it's painfull for them .
Upside Scandinavian boat builders seem to have found buyers and restarted albeit with a shrunken workforce ,
Broom have been through this nearer to home .
Some could relocate to Plymouth or Poole ?

 

[rafiki_]

"We should also bear in mind that the jobs of a loyal workforce in Kidderminster are potentially at risk here"

Ok - Point taken, but think of real life coffee machine/ canteen chit chat amongst the work force -they know .
Comet,Jessops,and HMV, went through this ,it's painfull for them .
Upside Scandinavian boat builders seem to have found buyers and restarted albeit with a shrunken workforce ,
Broom have been through this nearer to home .
Some could relocate to Plymouth or Poole ?

It is not just those that work at Sealine, but the supply chain that will be weakened for the remaining industry if Sealine goes. This will also impact Fair/Prin/Sun. While I am no lover of shoring up poorly run companies, I don't know enough about the Sealine business to know how well it has been run, so I am not qualified to comment.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Broom have been through this nearer to home .

Sorry, have to take issue with that as well Broom were bought from the Broom family by 2 investors who temporarily closed production whilst they restructured the company. AFAIK the company was never insolvent

 

[halcyon]

Whilst I agree with the rest of your analysis, I think you have to be careful about using damaging words like that, Portofino. There is no suggestion that Sealine is insolvent with or without the guarantees of its parent company. We should also bear in mind that the jobs of a loyal workforce in Kidderminster are potentially at risk here

Interesting thing is 30 years ago I got my first order from Sealine for switchgear, and was told by a local business man to avoid them as they were going bust, 30 years later I'm being told the same.


Brian

 

[Portofino]

Originally Posted by Portofino
Broom have been through this nearer to home .

Sorry, have to take issue with that as well Broom were bought from the Broom family by 2 investors who temporarily closed production whilst they restructured the company. AFAIK the company was never insolvent

I was merely reffering to the workforce issue of wondering what's going to happen ? who,s going to come along and rescue ?
Who will be here next year - if sales don,t pick up? That kinda thing .
Insolvent thing , could be reworded as cash flow probs? Or adverse bank lending criteria - or capitalisation issues
But at the end of the day I think one should avoid " Osterich syndrome"

 

[Whitelighter]

I seem to remember less than 24 months ago no-one would do any work for sunseeker unless invoives were paid in advance....

 

[A&K]

I'm not being funny but as Deleted User suggested above, I think discussing the potential insolvency of another uk builder is pretty inappropriate. I'm not sure how you would feel having people with no knowledge of the situation suggesting the company you're working for was next in line to go bust. And at the margin, discussions like this don't help the situation.

 

[Switch]

I'm not being funny but as Deleted User suggested above, I think discussing the potential insolvency of another uk builder is pretty inappropriate. I'm not sure how you would feel having people with no knowledge of the situation suggesting the company you're working for was next in line to go bust. And at the margin, discussions like this don't help the situation.

+ 1

 

[U4]

+ 1

+2

 

[petem]

Last published turnovers:

Sunseeker £288m (peaked at £304m 2010)
Princess £207m ( £213m 2009)
Fairline £79m ( £130m 2007)
Sealine £33m ( £ 61m 2004)

Says it all I fear - Portofino has it right, much as it seems crazy to most to see British builders moving bigger and bigger and abandoning most of us, business wise it has clearly been the right thing to do.

Your figures certainly don't say it all. In fact turnover is meaningless, remember the saying "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, cash is reality".

I seem to remember less than 24 months ago no-one would do any work for sunseeker unless invoives were paid in advance....

Poor analogy WL. IIRC Sunseekers problem was cash, their business has always been good, but their management were poor (e.g. governance). Didn't they get caught out with a foreign dealer going tits up?

I think there's far too much ill informed speculation here. More facts required.

 

[therealmrprice]

Your figures certainly don't say it all. In fact turnover is meaningless, remember the saying "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, cash is reality".




Poor analogy WL. IIRC Sunseekers problem was cash, their business has always been good, but their management were poor (e.g. governance). Didn't they get caught out with a foreign dealer going tits up?

I think there's far too much ill informed speculation here. More facts required.

OK, I shouldn't have said "says it all" - however, turnover is not meaningless. Given the sort of decline in sales that Fairline and Sealine have seen, it is remarkable that they have survived at all. I can only assume that is down to a series of investors doing their utmost and putting in significant amounts of money to make them better businesses - and that isn't going to happen overnight.

I personally didn't read the Sealine announcement as meaning they are in trouble. I don't know but perhaps OIG's skill is in stabilising businesses and they now feel it is in decent shape to sell on to someone better positioned to grow it?

The fact is that we don't know. As a Sealine owner I for one hope the company finds the right owner for the next stage in its development.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

AFAIK the Sunseeker Dealer with huge problems was one which the company was involved in not a small percentage. It was actually a situation where they had to much trade-ins used boats not sold.
Apparently Sunseeker saved the dealer from going bust and created a problem in its own company.

Anyways this was the news they told me at the time. Might have been misleading though.

@ PeteM
It is true boat margins are less nowadays but it is also much more a competitive enviroment.
When the pound was weak for example here in Malta we got x3 new Fairline 38 Targas. Thanks to this we have as much 38Ts as we have Beneteau Monte Carlo, and Atlantis 35.
We got only one SC35 which was not much liked by the locals IMO, unlike the S34 which we have half a dozen running around.

Price can make a huge difference the problem I see is that all the Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker at around 40 entry level offers are to much expensive in my book compared to a Beneteau.
When the difference is around 40% people do not think twice not to buy a Fairline, Princess instead of a Prestige or a Jeanneau.

The new Sealines cater for that market where you have that price closer to a mass production French builder, but the company has also gone a style route which eighter you like it or you dont.

Anyways I think the market is shrinked in all sizes. If buidlers think you can mass produces with these prices they are all going to be in a bad position.
Builders have to reinvent themselves and if some builders wants to keep seeling 40feet SC at 400k they can continue trying (they will sell a few to Russians and Arabs), but if they want to attract a more mature customer I think semi customization will be key in the next years. Think about the JFM 78 Squadron in a smaller scale.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

AFAIK the Sunseeker Dealer with huge problems was one which the company was involved in not a small percentage. It was actually a situation where they had to much trade-ins used boats not sold.
Apparently Sunseeker saved the dealer from going bust and created a problem in its own company.

Yes that was the story as I understand it. Whether or not SS had a stake in the dealer or not I don't know but they decided to bail out the dealer I guess in order to maintain market credibility. A figure of £5m was mentioned. Looks like it cost Braithwaite his company though

Price can make a huge difference the problem I see is that all the Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker at around 40 entry level offers are to much expensive in my book compared to a Beneteau.
When the difference is around 40% people do not think twice not to buy a Fairline, Princess instead of a Prestige or a Jeanneau.

The new Sealines cater for that market where you have that price closer to a mass production French builder, but the company has also gone a style route which eighter you like it or you dont.

Anyways I think the market is shrinked in all sizes. If buidlers think you can mass produces with these prices they are all going to be in a bad position.
Builders have to reinvent themselves and if some builders wants to keep seeling 40feet SC at 400k they can continue trying (they will sell a few to Russians and Arabs), but if they want to attract a more mature customer I think semi customization will be key in the next years. Think about the JFM 78 Squadron in a smaller scale

I'm surprised to hear you say that the UK builders' prices are not competitive. I know they have to buy some components like engines in foreign currency but many of their costs are still Sterling denominated and Sterling is still very cheap against the Euro. Yes I agree with your analysis. Boat builders cannot continue to sell boats in the future in the same kind of numbers as they sold before 2008 without some kind of major cost or technological change. There are fewer and fewer buyers willing to pay £500k for a new 45 foot flybridge boat and fill it with fuel at a rate of 1mpg. Something has to change

 

[henryf]

I can't comment on the situation at Sealine but for the sake of employees, owners and the UK as a whole I hope the situation resolves it's self.

What is interesting is to see how manufacturers who chose to go bigger, (much to the indigence of posters on here who said they shouldn't forget who their real customers were) seem to have fared the best over the past few years.

Large boats are never cheap but the British yards seem to offer very cost effective solutions probably as a result of their range wide cross pollination which reaps rewards both ways.

Had they listened to people on here and focussed on smaller more affordable boats the likes of Princess & Sunseeker wouldn't be as successful as they are today.

Building things as complex and labour intensive as boats can never be easy. I take my hat off to those who try.

Henry

 

[petem]

Henry,

We never said focus on smaller boats. What I believe we said was don't forget the smaller boats and provide an affordable entry level boat to win new customers.
Reality is that all of the big 4 now have an entry level model at 38-40ft although I have heard rumours at various times over the past couple of years of a baby Fairline (sadly that probably still means 35ft and £300k).

Pete

 

[AdeOlly]

Prior to Oxford buying in, wasn't there a plan that Sealine were going to have hulls for smaller craft made in Poland? A shame that idea was canned IMHO as craft at the smaller end (i.e. <35') are much more their market than half million quid jobs. The S23, S28 and S34 used to sell by the shed load, as did the F33 and F34 and the like. Smallest F/B now is what, 47'? Seems daft to me, of course I have no idea how much margin those sales delivered.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

We never said focus on smaller boats. What I believe we said was don't forget the smaller boats and provide an affordable entry level boat to win new customers.

Exactly, its about brand loyalty. Very few people start with a 60 footer. They start with a 30 footer and if the builder has a comprehensive range of boats, buyers can be enticed to trade up through that range. Having said that, all the UK manufacturers start with sub 40 footers so they're trying to play that game. It isn't realistic to expect them to compete in the sub 30ft market where there is such strong competition from lower cost builders and in any case, it can be counter productive, as Sealine found out over the years. If you're competing in the sub 30ft market, its very difficult to make the brand stretch to the 60ft+ market. Sealine always found it difficult to sell 50/60 footers because their brand was associated with smaller, cheaper boats

 

[halcyon]

Prior to Oxford buying in, wasn't there a plan that Sealine were going to have hulls for smaller craft made in Poland? A shame that idea was canned IMHO as craft at the smaller end (i.e. <35') are much more their market than half million quid jobs. The S23, S28 and S34 used to sell by the shed load, as did the F33 and F34 and the like. Smallest F/B now is what, 47'? Seems daft to me, of course I have no idea how much margin those sales delivered.

Production had a extremely high productivity , a 240 Senator took 6 days from starting hull lay-up to shipping, 330 Statesman 7 days, 360S 10 days, 410S 14 days. Plus Sealine owned the dealership, so production cost minimized, profit maximized, around 80% of production was export.

Brian

 

[Firefly625]

Production had a extremely high productivity , a 240 Senator took 6 days from starting hull lay-up to shipping, 330 Statesman 7 days, 360S 10 days, 410S 14 days. Plus Sealine owned the dealership, so production cost minimized, profit maximized, around 80% of production was export.

Brian

blooming heck, those were whipped up quick!!

Love to know how that compares to various other manufacturers for similar size boats... really interesting