Seahorse Trust petition reaches 100,000

dgadee said:
But conservationists love to touch the animals. Same with birds. There is supposed to be a sub group of spotters called 'bird fondlers'. I was surprised to hear that only 1% of birds cleaned after an oil spill will live. Cleaning them just seems like cruelty to me. But the cleaners get to touch, which I suppose is what it is all about.
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I think the situation is different. If you are taking an animal from the wild, tagging it, stressing it, etc, just for your own justifications, that is one thing, and shouldn't happen. If, like oiled birds, or the injured seals / cetaceans we deal with (BDMLR) you are at least trying to give an creature a better chance of living than it hand (often caused by human actions). Obviously if animals are too far gone, or have little chance of survival, the best thing is for a professional to bring and end to their suffering.

I don't think your 1% recounted figure is accurate for birds, there are too many other factors to make such a generalisation.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I used to fly gliders over one of their reserves, and we regularly heard shots. They really, really don't like some species of birds, you see, and make money selling licences to kill them. Rather tough if you are the wrong sort of feathered friend.
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They certainly don't like humans, judging by their cheerful flooding of the Somerset levels and happiness to provoke the same at Pagham; human homes and businesses don't count at all, unless of course one is enlightened thus worthy, like, erm let me think...
 
Ive just been re-reading the 2011 Seahorse Survey report: very strange that with 140,000+ pleading for Studland to be protected as the 'only place in the UK where seahorses breed'. The BSS (thats the British seahorse survey, not the more appropriate interpretation involving the dung of male cows) records over 650 sightings on the National Seahorse Database from places as far apart as the Dogger Bank, The Channel Islands and west Ireland,as well as colonies as far north as the Orkneys. I would think an internet lynching is likely when so many find they have had the wool pulled over their eyes! Defra certainly know the truth and that is what matters.

It makes quite interesting reading: the first pregnant seahorse spotted in studland in 2004,and a biggish population recorded up to 2009. That year the tagging project started. within 2 years the population had dropped to around 5 and has not recovered. We will be taking this up with the MMO as a likely cause of the drop in Seahorse population, a view supported by recent research elsewhere which found that seahorse being handled were frequently attacked by predators soon after their release, while undisturbed seahorses in the same location survived uneaten. They could see no reason for this, but noted it happened too often to be just chance.
 
Seajet said:
They certainly don't like humans, judging by their cheerful flooding of the Somerset levels and happiness to provoke the same at Pagham; human homes and businesses don't count at all, unless of course one is enlightened thus worthy, like, erm let me think...
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The RSPB is pretty controversial, to put it mildly, in the Hebrides. However, they have shed loads of money and can basically do what they like.
 
JumbleDuck said:
The RSPB is pretty controversial, to put it mildly, in the Hebrides. However, they have shed loads of money and can basically do what they like.
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True, and they also have some pretty powerful names backing them. They are an extremely powerful lobby.

It was RSPB who tried to get the MCZs extended to bird nesting sites. They wanted exclusion zones for all craft within range of coastal nesting sites. Yachts particularly were targeted as 'large moving objects' likely to disturb nesting birds. However, it was pointed out (by RYA) that MCZ were by definition below sea level and birds dont usually nest under water!.

But watch this space: they still want to this one. And taking them on will be a much more serious battle than ridiculing NGM and his flipper clad fans and their seahorses!
 
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oldharry said:
True, and they also have some pretty powerful names backing them. They are an extremely powerful lobby.

It was RSPB who tried to get the MCZs extended to bird nesting sites. They wanted exclusion zones for all craft within range of coastal nesting sites. Yachts particularly were targeted as 'large moving objects' likely to disturb nesting birds. However, it was pointed out (by RYA) that MCZ were by definition below sea level and birds dont usually nest under water!.

But watch this space: they still want to this one. And taking them on will be a much more serious battle than ridiculing NGM and his flipper clad fans and their seahorses!
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OH, on that subject, do you want those birds interacting more than happily with boats photos-I have a number-came across a few again at the weekend.
Our late Founder Commodore never could use his boat until May every year-the coots loved his bathing platform as a nest site!
 
chanelyacht said:
I don't think your 1% recounted figure is accurate for birds, there are too many other factors to make such a generalisation.
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I don't usually make things up and I try not to generalise too much. I had posted this a few months ago:

"Chris Packham (VP of RSPB) was on Newsnight and said that only 1% of birds cleaned from oil actually survive. Some say better not to clean them, rather to put them out of their misery - http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/less-than-1-of-oil-soaked-birds-survive.html"
 
dgadee said:
The RSPB has a definite view of what nature should be. They have been cutting down trees in Caithness which they consider "not appropriate".
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JumbleDuck said:
I used to fly gliders over one of their reserves, and we regularly heard shots. They really, really don't like some species of birds, you see, and make money selling licences to kill them. Rather tough if you are the wrong sort of feathered friend.
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This accords well with my experience of "conservationists."They get an idea that such & such needs protecting & then ignoring the laws of nature set about creating a completely artificial habitat.
I would love to give details of the place I mentioned previously but it would mean putting some of the altogether worthy residents in peril.
 
oldharry said:
Ive just been re-reading the 2011 Seahorse Survey report: very strange that with 140,000+ pleading for Studland to be protected as the 'only place in the UK where seahorses breed'. The BSS (thats the British seahorse survey, not the more appropriate interpretation involving the dung of male cows) records over 650 sightings on the National Seahorse Database from places as far apart as the Dogger Bank, The Channel Islands and west Ireland,as well as colonies as far north as the Orkneys. I would think an internet lynching is likely when so many find they have had the wool pulled over their eyes! Defra certainly know the truth and that is what matters.

It makes quite interesting reading: the first pregnant seahorse spotted in studland in 2004,and a biggish population recorded up to 2009. That year the tagging project started. within 2 years the population had dropped to around 5 and has not recovered. We will be taking this up with the MMO as a likely cause of the drop in Seahorse population, a view supported by recent research elsewhere which found that seahorse being handled were frequently attacked by predators soon after their release, while undisturbed seahorses in the same location survived uneaten. They could see no reason for this, but noted it happened too often to be just chance.
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Brilliant :encouragement:
 
dgadee said:
I don't usually make things up and I try not to generalise too much. I had posted this a few months ago:

"Chris Packham (VP of RSPB) was on Newsnight and said that only 1% of birds cleaned from oil actually survive. Some say better not to clean them, rather to put them out of their misery - http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/less-than-1-of-oil-soaked-birds-survive.html"
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I wasn't implying you make thing up, apologies if it came over like that.

Packham is, simply, an idiot. He has a huge knowledge of parts of his subject, but is highly blinkered. His statement simply doesn't make sense - you have to look at oil type, length of exposure, prevailing weather conditions, time of year, fitness of bird prior to incident, when cleaned (cleaning too early is damaging), and recovery programme - i.e. rehabilitated properly or just chucked out after cleaning.

Frankly, the bloke's a bellend.
 
oldharry said:
It makes quite interesting reading: the first pregnant seahorse spotted in studland in 2004,and a biggish population recorded up to 2009. That year the tagging project started. within 2 years the population had dropped to around 5 and has not recovered. We will be taking this up with the MMO as a likely cause of the drop in Seahorse population, a view supported by recent research elsewhere which found that seahorse being handled were frequently attacked by predators soon after their release, while undisturbed seahorses in the same location survived uneaten. They could see no reason for this, but noted it happened too often to be just chance.
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Is there a process to apply to have his handling licence revoked?
 
chanelyacht said:
I wasn't implying you make thing up, apologies if it came over like that.

Packham is, simply, an idiot. He has a huge knowledge of parts of his subject, but is highly blinkered. His statement simply doesn't make sense - you have to look at oil type, length of exposure, prevailing weather conditions, time of year, fitness of bird prior to incident, when cleaned (cleaning too early is damaging), and recovery programme - i.e. rehabilitated properly or just chucked out after cleaning.

Frankly, the bloke's a bellend.
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This side line debate to the thread has me interested
Does anybody have any other information to support the 1% claim or otherwise. If not 1% then what is it? Presumably someone somewhere has the correct figures
Preferably someone without a financial interest!!!!!
 
The trouble is, anyone producing any figures will have a vested interest.

Packham is just an arse, I suppose being one on telly is his vested interest.

People who treat and save birds would, I'd expect, tend to inflate their success rates, ' we do a great job, give us more money '

People who complain about pollution like Greenpeace will probably inflate the death rates, ' we stop pollution, give us more money '

People like the Coastguard would probably like to have and give a true figure, but where do they get real untainted data ?
 
oldharry said:
Ive just been re-reading the 2011 Seahorse Survey report: very strange that with 140,000+ pleading for Studland to be protected as the 'only place in the UK where seahorses breed'. The BSS (thats the British seahorse survey, not the more appropriate interpretation involving the dung of male cows) records over 650 sightings on the National Seahorse Database from places as far apart as the Dogger Bank, The Channel Islands and west Ireland,as well as colonies as far north as the Orkneys. I would think an internet lynching is likely when so many find they have had the wool pulled over their eyes! Defra certainly know the truth and that is what matters.

It makes quite interesting reading: the first pregnant seahorse spotted in studland in 2004,and a biggish population recorded up to 2009. That year the tagging project started. within 2 years the population had dropped to around 5 and has not recovered. We will be taking this up with the MMO as a likely cause of the drop in Seahorse population, a view supported by recent research elsewhere which found that seahorse being handled were frequently attacked by predators soon after their release, while undisturbed seahorses in the same location survived uneaten. They could see no reason for this, but noted it happened too often to be just chance.
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is it possible for someone to introduce Seahorses so as to record sightings of them?
 
dgadee said:
I don't usually make things up and I try not to generalise too much. I had posted this a few months ago:

"Chris Packham (VP of RSPB) was on Newsnight and said that only 1% of birds cleaned from oil actually survive. Some say better not to clean them, rather to put them out of their misery - http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/less-than-1-of-oil-soaked-birds-survive.html"
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When I first read that, I thought it was complete nonsense. However a quick search on the web confirms that for many species it is absolutely correct. Still surprises me. Makes it a difficult decision as to what to do for the best.
 
dgadee said:
Google Scholar is the place to go - http://scholar.google.co.uk/

Search for birds oil spill and you'll get a number of citations. A lot of work seems to have been done in the 1990s, but the US government has recent data sets. It seems that some birds are better able to survive - RSPB claims so anyway: http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/Rehabilitation_of_oiled_birds_tcm9-346665.pdf

I have no expertise in this field, but perhaps others can clarify.
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I'd be very very wary of any figures the RSPB came up with; there's going to be a serious agenda or 5 attached to anything they say, note the comments that they shoot ' the wrong sorts of birds ' on their reserves !
 
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