Normalfornorfolk
Well-Known Member
A picture tells you that?
Clumsy was it? Cetainly not a view held by those that flew them...
Seafire over Harwich today
- Thread starter Champagne Murphy
- Start date
A picture tells you that?
Clumsy was it? Cetainly not a view held by those that flew them...
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I take it that your friends weren't involved with the one per week that crashed.
Actually, I have always admired the Meteor, but small planes like the Vampire and Mig15 have a special quality of their own.
Normalfornorfolk
Well-Known Member
I can't imagine what connection an anecdotal accident rate has to do with an aeroplane's menoeuverability.
Total non-sequitur.
Was the (horrific) accident rate back then restricted to the Meteor? Or was it RAF wide - including the Vampire? I suspect you can answer that perfectly well...
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I was referring purely to the plane's visual qualities in relation to the nearby Vampire. I'm no pilot and can't assess its flight characteristics, but I may have underestimated the accident rate, as in : http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-70987.html
Normalfornorfolk
Well-Known Member
The meatbox was very much a product of 1940's design before anyone had really thought out how to incorporte jet engines into aircraft or really get to grips with proper streamlining. The Vampire had the advantage of being just a year or two later in concept, plus being DeHavilland which naturally improved its chances as a looker.
As to underestimating the losses, I rather doubt you did! Losses in the 50s were simply horrendous and spreaad across many types.
To put it into perspective the RAF had thousands of aircraft then (maybe 6000 in the mid '50s) against less than a tenth of that now, and conversion training was pretty arbitary - as many types had no 2 seaters you read the pilot's notes, had a briefing session with an experienced pilot and just flew the thing. With neither training nor theoretical knowledge on turbines converting from a piston engined fighter to a jet must have been a highly risky business from the engine management aspect alone. Add to that the novelty and traps of a twin in the meteor's case - no wonder they lost so many. The shame was it took so long for them to learn a better way.
To quote from that link;
As to underestimating the losses, I rather doubt you did! Losses in the 50s were simply horrendous and spreaad across many types.
To put it into perspective the RAF had thousands of aircraft then (maybe 6000 in the mid '50s) against less than a tenth of that now, and conversion training was pretty arbitary - as many types had no 2 seaters you read the pilot's notes, had a briefing session with an experienced pilot and just flew the thing. With neither training nor theoretical knowledge on turbines converting from a piston engined fighter to a jet must have been a highly risky business from the engine management aspect alone. Add to that the novelty and traps of a twin in the meteor's case - no wonder they lost so many. The shame was it took so long for them to learn a better way.
To quote from that link;
Last edited:
Major_Clanger
Well-Known Member
How horribly right you are. The post-war Labour government, and Wilson's administration of 1964-70, were active opponents of the SBAC (Society of British Aircraft Constructors), and Roy Jenkins was thrown out of at least one of their meetings. My Great Uncle had to enact the decision to cancel TSR-2, and the truth behind the cancellation is more disgraceful than most of the conspiracy theories flying about. Apart from the many other issues surrounding the controversy, perhaps the greatest one was that Labour knew they had finally killed-off what remained of our aircraft industry. We designed and built some wonderful aeroplanes after that, but the seeds of the collapse had already been sown.
Last edited:
Nauti Fox
Well-Known Member
I was unfortunate enough to see the "Vintage Pair" accident at Mildenhall in 1986, sad day.
It was one of those blustery low cloudbase days so they were flying their low level display.
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas_19860525_wa669_xh304.pdf
It was one of those blustery low cloudbase days so they were flying their low level display.
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas_19860525_wa669_xh304.pdf
Last edited:
davidej
Well-Known Member
Back to Seafires
Are there any airworthy examples left?
Are there any airworthy examples left?
Nauti Fox
Well-Known Member
johnalison
Well-Known Member
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
On Gannet, Eglinton in '49 we did have a squadron of Seafires and a Sea Vampire as well as Fireflies and Barracudas, I did get a trip in a Barracuda, dummy divebombing over Magilligan Sands at that time.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I always feel sad that all the publicity is given to a handful of planes, when the workhorses of the time carried so much of the burden and are now so little known.
Normalfornorfolk
Well-Known Member
G-INFO lists seven Seafires registered in the UK and though that has no bearing on flyability it does perhaps indicate what the potential is.
There are doubtless more abroad.
It was not a great success as a Naval fighter mainly because the undercarriage was weak and far too narrow for stability on deck, accident losses were huge. The structure in general was not really strong enough for carrier ops and it had severe limitations in deck performance (being a "hot ship"), ditching characteristics and handling problems due to the various mods incorporated.
I doubt it was much liked by its pilots but at least they didn't write excoriating ditties about it like they did of the unloved Barracuda!
There are doubtless more abroad.
It was not a great success as a Naval fighter mainly because the undercarriage was weak and far too narrow for stability on deck, accident losses were huge. The structure in general was not really strong enough for carrier ops and it had severe limitations in deck performance (being a "hot ship"), ditching characteristics and handling problems due to the various mods incorporated.
I doubt it was much liked by its pilots but at least they didn't write excoriating ditties about it like they did of the unloved Barracuda!
Last edited:
johnalison
Well-Known Member
My brothers used to collect the Aeroplane Spotter during the war. Sadly, many were lost, but I still have 6 months that they had bound. At this stage in the war, teaching young men and boys (mostly) how to spot was considered essential to the war effort. This book is from Jan-Jun 1941, so no Seafires, but I still find it fascinating. The mood changes during the 6 months from deadly serious to the occasionally light-hearted.
Major_Clanger
Well-Known Member
My brothers used to collect the Aeroplane Spotter during the war. Sadly, many were lost, but I still have 6 months that they had bound. At this stage in the war, teaching young men and boys (mostly) how to spot was considered essential to the war effort. This book is from Jan-Jun 1941, so no Seafires, but I still find it fascinating. The mood changes during the 6 months from deadly serious to the occasionally light-hearted.
What a treasure to have!
I remember an article on Seafires years ago in Flight magazine. It included a photo from the late 50s of about two dozen Seafires on the dump at Baldonnel airfield near Dublin. All were flown in and scrapped.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
Flight was a bit civilian-orientated for some of us war-conditioned boys around 1952. I used to pore over the RAF Flying Review at a time when the aircraft industry was really interesting. I didn't keep a single one though.
Major_Clanger
Well-Known Member
I have most annual Reviews from the late 40s to late 60s. Happy to lend them to you. They make for sad reading in many respects; rather a narrative of decline.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
Thanks, that's a great idea. Maybe you would like to peruse my book too.