Sea Cadets - What are they taught?

[awol]

He probably found his little stone and crawled back under it.

Perhaps others should follow suit. "Like the Sea Cadets, must try harder". Another stupid comment....is there some thing in the water in Scotland? Bring on the referendum, only sad thing about that is the English don't get to vote.....

I believe the modern way is to regard any criticism as an opportunity to excellence. Why don't you just pass the ensign comment onto your friends in the Sea Cadets? Ignorance of the etiquette can easily be cured, slovenliness in its application is a matter of attitude and I hope yours is not endemic.

 

[dgadee]

He probably found his little stone and crawled back under it.

Perhaps others should follow suit. "Like the Sea Cadets, must try harder". Another stupid comment....is there some thing in the water in Scotland? Bring on the referendum, only sad thing about that is the English don't get to vote.....

Bit nasty, don't you think?

 

[KenMcCulloch]

He probably found his little stone and crawled back under it.

Perhaps others should follow suit. "Like the Sea Cadets, must try harder". Another stupid comment....is there some thing in the water in Scotland? Bring on the referendum, only sad thing about that is the English don't get to vote.....

Are you familiar with the concept of humour? Maybe it's a Scottish thing.

 

[Lozzer]

Lozzer, while everything you said stands, I think the tone you took in addressing AWOL's posts was a woeful overreaction.

I've seen this kind of thing a few times from people associated with something under question (the recent one was an overreaction about someone questioning the friendliness of a "friendly" club that failed to wave back). The snottyness of your response does nobody any favours. That you followed up with your nasty little "roll on the referendum" and the insinuation that the English will be glad to see the back of them sums it up nicely.


All AWOL had said was:

That's it. No bad light cast on anyone or anything. A situation and a question.

Your first response out of the gate was an all out attack as if he'd slated everyone and everything in the entire organisation.

Chill out. You may be taking things a little too personally.

You know what William I'm not so convinced I overreacted. AWOL is obviously a clever guy going by the vocabulary he uses. If he really wanted to know what the Sea Cadets get taught he could have simply gone onto their website. He didn't do that he chose to question them on this forum insinuating that they had no etiquette

Having spent many years as part of the organisation both hands on and latterly from afar I find it offensive for people to question the voluntary work done my many good people.

The referendum comment could have been taken in a number of ways as so many posts can be. My point about the referendum is that everyone should have a say after all there will be an impact on the English if Scotland leave the Union.

Personally I don't care about the referendum as I don't live in the UK. It is however nice to watch the politicians bickering like children, it would be nice if they would tell the truth. Mr Salmond will not get a New Scotland into the EU as Spain will block it with all their might for fear that the Catalans will follow suit.

Now talking about being chilled. Best I have another glass of Chianti or Merlot.

Chin chin, Bottoms up..

 

[rosewood]

From my experience, a lot of ensign wearers do leave them up 24/7, some even when the boat is parked unoccupied, but that doesn't make it right. The Sea Cadets have the privilege of a defaced blue, Royal patronage, RN support and it seems reasonable to me that they should have some respect for this support and the traditions of their sponsors. You, however, seem to dismiss this as petty. As for me, I try to remember to strike my ensign before I leave the boat, raise the burgee before the ensign and lower it after, hoist it at 0800 and strike at 2100 or sunset. Sometimes I fail and sometimes the piss is taken out of me for even bothering.

As for the rest ....... so the instructors are VOLUNTEERS - is that really a valid excuse for lack of etiquette? And is a mild comment on ensign etiquette really "berating"?

It was just a way of saving money that became a tradition. Too much fuss over nonsense in my opinion

 

[WilliamUK]

So am I right in thinking we're definitely sticking with the pretence that "...what are they taught..." isn't a perfectly standard soundbite/cliché used to express a feeling something hasn't been done right?

Are we going to also pretend that "What are they teaching in schools these days?" is a criticism of schools and hence all school staff rather than of something the speaker is commenting on... an ensign in this case?


There is nothing more to this thread than someone who takes ensign etiquette a bit too seriously (sorry AWOL, I'm not actually on side with this one - except maybe the stern-light bit) huffing about it in a bog standard way. I find it somewhat odd that you are so offended by it, and indeed that you think someone having a huff about a rag on a stick is somehow casting aspersions upon the volunteers in the sea cadets.

Thicker skin might be in order.


It may be that he's huffing about the cadets failing to follow their training and leaving the ensign flying at night... it may be that he's huffing about the corps failing to teach them to take down the ensign at night... but either way, getting offended on behalf of people who likely couldn't give a flying chuff what he thinks either way is a lot of work on your part.



On the referendum front, I don't want the union dividing like this - especially as the only real reasons behind it are the motivations and ambitions of politicians - but the only people who should get a vote are those who would be doing the leaving. Tyranny of Majority would otherwise likely prevail. There's legitimate argument to be made for the TERMS of independence being a cross-border issue suitable for a universal referendum, but the issue of independence per se is a Scottish issue.

 

[Lozzer]

William that's just made me laugh thank you... The teaching in schools is another issue I have... But I will leave that well alone. By the way I'm not a teacher wouldn't have the patients.

Agreed on the politicians.

There are big effects on UK. Np home of nuclear deterrent, currency etc. but that would be thread drift.

In many ways I don't disagree with the original comment especially the nav light. This in my opinion is appalling. Only three weeks ago travelling from Barcelona to Genova I nearly ran down a small sailing yacht who had decided to turn nav lights off and not bother with a radar reflector. It was only the change of watch that had me walking around the deck checking things when I noticed the dull interior light of said yacht. I had time to get back to wheel house and alter course. I could quite clearly see the boat on the night vision when it passed on our beam.. 85 tons at 11 knots would have done a bit of damage.

Sea cadets taught me the importance of keeping a good watch so we do learn. But sadly I don't take the ensign down at night and I'm a professional skipper, naughty me. Hope that gives AWOL and other a smile.

 

[NormanS]

I wonder of Lozzer will defend the Sea Cadets for this one. Three motor cruisers, chartered by the Sea Cadets, in the Caledonian Canal. For ease of communication, they called them A, B, and C. They all proudly wore the appropriate International Code Flags.

Need I say more?

 

[Lozzer]

I don't know the circumstances ie names of the boats, if they were unpronounceable then that makes sense although I might have called them Alpha, Bravo and Charlie. Putting the relevant code flags also makes sense that way the cadets are show the international code of signals. Might have confused the neighbours as some of the more knowledgable amongst us would know that one boat has a diver down whilst the other is carry, loading or discharging dangerous cargo in the meantime the last boat is in agreement. That by the way I was taught in the Sea cadets at the age of 13.

Remember you are exalting with anything from 12-18 year olds. Some might have learning difficulties but you go ahead and mock. Oh to be brilliant like some.

 

[NormanS]

I don't know the circumstances ie names of the boats, if they were unpronounceable then that makes sense although I might have called them Alpha, Bravo and Charlie. Putting the relevant code flags also makes sense that way the cadets are show the international code of signals. Might have confused the neighbours as some of the more knowledgable amongst us would know that one boat has a diver down whilst the other is carry, loading or discharging dangerous cargo in the meantime the last boat is in agreement. That by the way I was taught in the Sea cadets at the age of 13.

Remember you are exalting with anything from 12-18 year olds. Some might have learning difficulties but you go ahead and mock. Oh to be brilliant like some.

Don't you think it is even a little stupid to fly a flag indicating "I have a diver down, Please keep clear of me".

PS. What on earth is the meaning of "exalting" in your context?

 

[Lozzer]

Sorry typo, big fingers little keyboard. Throw into that predictive text and you get a true mish mash...

Yes I do think its stupid and wrong to fly the flags in the wrong context but you tell me how many of the average boaters would know the meaning of them!

I mean what does the flag Zulu look like and what does it mean? I'm not doubting your knowledge just an open question.

I was lucky in that I was taught well by my instructors many years ago.

We all have faults, my wife reminds me daily. But let's embrace the youth of today and celebrate that they are out on the water and not mugging little old ladies to pay for their next fix.

I will go back to original post. Sea cadets are taught lots of things now that's the end of the story for me.

I bid you all fair winds

 

[NormanS]

Sorry typo, big fingers little keyboard. Throw into that predictive text and you get a true mish mash...

Yes I do think its stupid and wrong to fly the flags in the wrong context but you tell me how many of the average boaters would know the meaning of them!

I mean what does the flag Zulu look like and what does it mean? I'm not doubting your knowledge just an open question.

I was lucky in that I was taught well by my instructors many years ago.

We all have faults, my wife reminds me daily. But let's embrace the youth of today and celebrate that they are out on the water and not mugging little old ladies to pay for their next fix.

I will go back to original post. Sea cadets are taught lots of things now that's the end of the story for me.

I bid you all fair winds

I think you will find that most of us know that flag Alpha is the internationally known flag for divers in the water. I would have expected a better level of knowledge and understanding from a Sea Cadet leader. TBH without looking it up, I haven't a clue what flag Zulu looks like, or its meaning.

 

[WilliamUK]

Lozzer, you talk as if youngsters today are thicker than two thick planks.

I really resent this all-too-common attitude that if kids are doing anything to keep them from mugging old ladies and shooting up with heroin ANY old ****e will do. I don't buy it for a second and I think it's a pretty dim view of the capability of teens to be excellent if they are engaged. I've worked with young'uns extensively and have yet to find one that wasn't underestimated by almost every adult I knew who had contact with them. Some have been underestimated so extensively they actually believe it themselves... until someone digs their self-belief back out again. That's not done by mollycoddling them.

If sea cadets are shaped up enough to be sent on outings on actual boats, they are shaped up enough to not need to misuse code flags to get by... but nobody is mocking the kids over the code flags. Those in charge who came up with or approved the idea might deserve a bit of "what were you thinking, porridge for brains" type ribbing as punishment for such a bone-head move. Again you rush to the defence of people not being attacked.

 

[jordanbasset]

Reading this thread I am reminded of my brother in law. He used to give up his Saturdays and one evening in the week to help coach the local youth football team. He was working full time but wanted to give something back to the community, he would not have put it in that way as he was down to earth.
He was not the best coach in the world, probably not in his street but he was better than nothing. He gave it up in the end because of constant criticism from other dads as to what he should and should not be doing. The team has since folded because no one else could be bothered to give up their time to help others. There are lots of arm chair critics in this world but if people want to make a difference they need to get involved.

 

[Dave-Shafa]

Couple of years ago I went to a Sea Cadets Open Evening near Edinburgh.
My niece was a member and the Admiral (with his sword) had come from Hm Naval Base Rosyth.

The cadets were put to tying various knots.
None of then could do any - I was so embarrassed - my niece (now Edinburgh Uni)
I tried to teach her when we got home ......

 

[Mariner69]

Regarding signal flags, the meaning depends upon the circumstances of their use.

A warship will fly the flags "G-Golf" and "H - Hotel" on separate hoists on the starboard yard for a specific meaning within the vessels operating together. If they want to use the International Code they will then use the Code Pennant above them to mean "I require a pilot" and "I have a pilot on board"; very different to their naval meanings.

In the same manner racing flags have different meanings to the 'standard'.

There is no reason why the sea cadets should not use the code flags to identify their individual craft as 'Alpha', 'Bravo', 'Charlie', and thus avoid using the full call signs on vhf.

The difference is that the sea cadets involved are operating vessels in company whereas the average yachtie only worries about him/herself.

Good for the kids to get afloat and volunteers helping. All the units need donations be they cash or time.

 

[NormanS]

Regarding signal flags, the meaning depends upon the circumstances of their use.

A warship will fly the flags "G-Golf" and "H - Hotel" on separate hoists on the starboard yard for a specific meaning within the vessels operating together. If they want to use the International Code they will then use the Code Pennant above them to mean "I require a pilot" and "I have a pilot on board"; very different to their naval meanings.

In the same manner racing flags have different meanings to the 'standard'.

There is no reason why the sea cadets should not use the code flags to identify their individual craft as 'Alpha', 'Bravo', 'Charlie', and thus avoid using the full call signs on vhf.

The difference is that the sea cadets involved are operating vessels in company whereas the average yachtie only worries about him/herself.

Good for the kids to get afloat and volunteers helping. All the units need donations be they cash or time.

Sorry, but that is garbage. In the circumstances, which you do not know, and I do, as I was there, it could at first only be assumed that they had a diver down. Of course, it turned out that they didn't.
Real divers rely on flag A for safety, and the more that people see its improper use, the less likely they are to respect it. It's a serious safety matter.

 

[Mariner69]

Sorry, but that is garbage. In the circumstances, which you do not know, and I do, as I was there, it could at first only be assumed that they had a diver down. Of course, it turned out that they didn't.
Real divers rely on flag A for safety, and the more that people see its improper use, the less likely they are to respect it. It's a serious safety matter.

You may say that. I personally couldn't comment.

 

[dunedin]

.... and while I'm in a grumpy mood ..... I have come across TS Vigilant and TS City Liveryman in Puilladobhrain on two occasions recently .

As an aside, we also saw them recently near Plockton. We did not stop to check their ensign etiquette . But they did do a good demonstration of the value of reefing - or more accurately the drawbacks of not doing so.
Twice in one day they headed off ahead of us upwind under full white sail - leaning over at an impressive angle. We left later and popped 2 reefs in the main. Sailing much more upright and making less leeway we soon had them well to leeward and behind.
Not intended as a criticism of the skippers, as they may have been wanting to have a bit of drama to entertain the crews. And not identical boats. But a reminder that often correctly trimmed reefed sails are faster than more canvas, and certainly more comfortable.