Schooner Malcolm Miller

Searush said:
I just managed to shout the traditional warning "BELOW" before jettisoning my entire meal in a single hurl.
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I heard of an episode on Stad Amsterdam (I think it was) where someone managed to do that, right through the open skylight onto the middle of the messroom table where the other watches were having lunch :D

The only time I've had one of my watch throw up aloft, it was windy enough that the whole lot blew away horizontally rather than sullying the decks below. I don't think the guy was seasick as such - I don't remember him being ill before or after - more terrified at finding himself at the outer end of a topsail yard, heeled over the sea, the day after joining the ship.

I might have had more sympathy had he not been a noisy American constantly talking about how great he was going to be at working aloft :D. He stayed on deck after that.

Pete
 
Seajet,

Royalist is still going strong.... my daughter is hoping to be on her this summer.... still used pretty much 365 days a year by the Sea Cadet corp

They still have to wear full number ones all the time they are aboard... a rule designed to instil some discipline and that meets with my full approval!

She's a grand sight at sea too!

As an aside and more directly related to the OP's question.... I used to see Churchill on a regular basis in Plymouth in the late 80's....
 
dancrane said:
Thanks, to you who've posted. I'm slightly surprised, that out of all the hundreds, the thousands of crewmen who must've taken their places as trainees on the Malcolm Miller or Winston Churchill over several decades, not even one has a single word of response, damning or full of respect, for one of the old hulls lying longterm in a Cornish river.

Aren't there any tales, any memories, opinions? That's more weird than anything else. Why aren't there? The ghost-storyist in me begins to form theories...feel free to add to them...
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Oh, I suspect there are, just not on PBO forum. I shipped as a trainee in 1967 in SWC and as navigator many times through the 1970s in SWC and MM; why not join the forum on Facebook that has been created for crews to swap dits?
See: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30680956784&v=wall
:-)
 
From what I have heard (I never sailed on them) the two schooners were the best vessels that the STA (now the TSYT) had - they were certainly far better sailing ships (in terms of speed) than the two brigs Stavros Niarchos and Prince William.
I think it was not uncommon to often reach speeds over 12 - 14 knots with the schooners under sail, while the brigs can probably manage about 9 knots maximum with everything up in half a hurricane (if they dare) - PRV Pete, what was your highest recorded speed on your brig voyages?
The TSYT only has Stavros now - PW was sold last year to the Pakistani Navy to be used as a sail training vessel (and yes, she now has a Pakistani name).

However the schooners were built in the 60's, in the days before the rules for passenger carrying vessels became much more stringent.
I think (am not certain) that the main reason why the schooners had to go was because it was just not economic to re-fit them to comply with the new safety standards that came in within the last 10 years or so - these would probably have included subdivision and upgrading water tight bulkheads re flooding, and replacing all outfit materials that could burn easily with more fire retardant stuff, and lots of other factors.

However they could still be used 'as is' if they were not carrying passengers - and a 'passenger' ship only really comes into being (according to SOLAS) when there are more than 12 passengers on board - a cargo ship can carry up to 12 pax, and still be a cargo ship.
The pax just have to accept that the level of safety on a cargo vessel, although very good, is probably less than what would be required on a pure passenger vessel.
Hence this was probably why SWC and MM were sold to be converted into private yachts, with up to 12 pax each (and perhaps at least 12 crew, if not more).

Royalist is smaller than the schooners, and I think she was probably built a bit later - however I reckon thst she still needed a major re-fit to make her comply with the new rules. I remember seeing her hauled out at Endeavour Quay in Gosport a little while back for what appeared to be quite a major re-fit.

Did any Forumites ever go sailing on the Windjammers Barefoot Cruises in the Caribbean?
They had a fleet of very old sailing ships, including Mandalay, Polynesia and Yankee Clipper, and were famous for their rum punch parties and (very) laid back attitude.
One of their vessels, Fantome, foundered off Roatan in 1998 during Hurricane Mitch with all crew lost (no pax on board, they had all been put ashore earlier before the vessel proceeded to sea to ride out the hurricane), and this must have been a huge emotional and financial blow to the company from which they never recovered properly.

I went on board Mandalay in St Georges, Grenada 9 years ago with some other crew members from the Stavros who was berthed on the quay behind her (this was my first trip on Stavros, and first time sailing on a tall ship, and it was brilliant).
Anyways, we were talking to the Captain, while being fed extremely potent rum punches, and I hazily remember him saying then that their fleet would probably have to be sold off (or scrapped) in order to conform with the new rules that were coming in - and the Windjammers would have still had to comply, even though most were registered in Equatorial Guinea (which is probably on par with St Vincent, if not worse, for 'flags of convenience').
But I think they went bankrupt a few years later - Yankee Clipper is still laid up in the docks at Port of Spain, Trinidad (I saw her there a few months ago) while the others are scattered around the Caribbean and Mandalay ended up in the Galapagos - here is a link to her - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=64

And here is Polynesia - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=67

And Yankee Clipper - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=68

Although only Mandalay has voyages listed, which suggests that Polynesia is (like Yankee Clipper) also laid up.
 
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I seem to remember that there was an issue with the SWC as she fell off the stocks while she was being built and it imparted some kind of twist or error in her so that she forever favoured one side or another in some way. Another tale is that while manoeuvring alongside in Albert dock the wind caught her and she speared a parked van on the dockside side with her bowsprit right through the drivers window.....
 
Bajansailor said:
From what I have heard (I never sailed on them) the two schooners were the best vessels that the STA (now the TSYT) had - they were certainly far better sailing ships (in terms of speed) than the two brigs Stavros Niarchos and Prince William.
I think it was not uncommon to often reach speeds over 12 - 14 knots with the schooners under sail, while the brigs can probably manage about 9 knots maximum with everything up in half a hurricane (if they dare) - PRV Pete, what was your highest recorded speed on your brig voyages?
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Not sure what's the fastest I've been. I believe Stavros has been clocked at 13 knots once, in ideal conditions, but that was exceptional - half that speed is more common. I'd agree with your assessment of the two designs' sailing merits - the main course on the brigs can't even be set most of the time as it causes huge weather helm. Two voyages I've been on we didn't have one, as the fore-course had blown out previously and the main course was swapped into its place. The most recent trip I think there wasn't even a plan to replace it, as it gets used so rarely.

Pete
 
Fascinating to think - if the keel-damage story is true - that the SWC has spent 45 years not steering straight!

Thanks for the link, Greenwichman. I love the Pathe footage of the SWC arriving on the Thames.

Looking through the 'Friends-of' site, I haven't yet found any speculation on the present condition and future prospects of the Malcolm Miller. Does anyone know her present owner's name?
 
Bajansailor said:
From what I have heard (I never sailed on them) the two schooners were the best vessels that the STA (now the TSYT) had - they were certainly far better sailing ships (in terms of speed) than the two brigs Stavros Niarchos and Prince William.
I think it was not uncommon to often reach speeds over 12 - 14 knots with the schooners under sail, while the brigs can probably manage about 9 knots maximum with everything up in half a hurricane (if they dare) - PRV Pete, what was your highest recorded speed on your brig voyages?
The TSYT only has Stavros now - PW was sold last year to the Pakistani Navy to be used as a sail training vessel (and yes, she now has a Pakistani name).

However the schooners were built in the 60's, in the days before the rules for passenger carrying vessels became much more stringent.
I think (am not certain) that the main reason why the schooners had to go was because it was just not economic to re-fit them to comply with the new safety standards that came in within the last 10 years or so - these would probably have included subdivision and upgrading water tight bulkheads re flooding, and replacing all outfit materials that could burn easily with more fire retardant stuff, and lots of other factors.

However they could still be used 'as is' if they were not carrying passengers - and a 'passenger' ship only really comes into being (according to SOLAS) when there are more than 12 passengers on board - a cargo ship can carry up to 12 pax, and still be a cargo ship.
The pax just have to accept that the level of safety on a cargo vessel, although very good, is probably less than what would be required on a pure passenger vessel.
Hence this was probably why SWC and MM were sold to be converted into private yachts, with up to 12 pax each (and perhaps at least 12 crew, if not more).

Royalist is smaller than the schooners, and I think she was probably built a bit later - however I reckon thst she still needed a major re-fit to make her comply with the new rules. I remember seeing her hauled out at Endeavour Quay in Gosport a little while back for what appeared to be quite a major re-fit.

Did any Forumites ever go sailing on the Windjammers Barefoot Cruises in the Caribbean?
They had a fleet of very old sailing ships, including Mandalay, Polynesia and Yankee Clipper, and were famous for their rum punch parties and (very) laid back attitude.
One of their vessels, Fantome, foundered off Roatan in 1998 during Hurricane Mitch with all crew lost (no pax on board, they had all been put ashore earlier before the vessel proceeded to sea to ride out the hurricane), and this must have been a huge emotional and financial blow to the company from which they never recovered properly.

I went on board Mandalay in St Georges, Grenada 9 years ago with some other crew members from the Stavros who was berthed on the quay behind her (this was my first trip on Stavros, and first time sailing on a tall ship, and it was brilliant).
Anyways, we were talking to the Captain, while being fed extremely potent rum punches, and I hazily remember him saying then that their fleet would probably have to be sold off (or scrapped) in order to conform with the new rules that were coming in - and the Windjammers would have still had to comply, even though most were registered in Equatorial Guinea (which is probably on par with St Vincent, if not worse, for 'flags of convenience').
But I think they went bankrupt a few years later - Yankee Clipper is still laid up in the docks at Port of Spain, Trinidad (I saw her there a few months ago) while the others are scattered around the Caribbean and Mandalay ended up in the Galapagos - here is a link to her - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=64

And here is Polynesia - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=67

And Yankee Clipper - http://www.sailingshipadventures.com/index.cfm?event=GetVesselDetails&VesselID=68

Although only Mandalay has voyages listed, which suggests that Polynesia is (like Yankee Clipper) also laid up.
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Very interesting post Martin & what a charmed life you do lead!
Not surprised if they can't find charter party's for those last two vessels with wish bone rigs,what a dogs breakfast!
 
Morgana,
I never thought for a moment that TS Royalist is not up and operational, sorry if I somehow gave that impression.

Re. Malcom Miller, I heard the story about 'kebabing a car with the bowsprit' too; the version I heard was of a 2CV picked up through the windows and carried along Weymouth Quay - it was related to me by a Tall Ship skipper ( actually from the Winston Churchill ! ) who didn't like alcohol etc, so I think it's probably true...

Nowadays it would have made a top scorer, in a buttock clenching way, on youtube...:)
 
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Has anybody on the Fal even seen the old schooner this year? I can't see her on Google's satellite imagery, though that may be earlier. Looking through Helena C webpages, I see she'd been for sale for $5.5million a few years back, and looked to be worth every cent as a luxury cruising yacht. I can't find a single newspaper reference to the fire, or anything about her ownership now.

Very sad to see that kebab-bowsprit missing, in the only recent pics. Maybe we can be hopeful though - if she hasn't been broken up yet, it is presumably someone's grand and costly plan to fix her up as she was a few years back, to offer at a loony price again. Hopefully that'll be work for a UK yard...
 
Thanks MPH; actually I did find that report, but the phrasing in it was so vague, I doubted it refered to the Malcolm Miller. The equivalent of saying "a man has been arrested" when everyone locally knows who it is. I hadn't known she'd been in Hythe.

I guess if she was subsequently fit to be towed 200 miles down-Channel to Falmouth, she's not quite finished yet.
 
dancrane said:
Thanks MPH; actually I did find that report, but the phrasing in it was so vague, I doubted it refered to the Malcolm Miller. The equivalent of saying "a man has been arrested" when everyone locally knows who it is. I hadn't known she'd been in Hythe.

I guess if she was subsequently fit to be towed 200 miles down-Channel to Falmouth, she's not quite finished yet.
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I remember seeing MM moored at the old American navy base pier just south of Hythe in the spring of 2008; I remember her being there for some time, I think having a minor refit for the charter season.
Another local radio news report at the time said that the fire originated in the engine room which is where the crew member was hurt.
The engine room is directly below the chartroom and galley so an extensive fire will have made a real mess of the heart of the vessel.
I don't know when they shifted her down to Falmouth but it was certainly moved off the berth at Hythe quite quickly.

I used to work as Bosun on both STA schooners in the 90's and knew the ships very well; it was a really sad sight to see her moored up in Falmouth the following year minus masts & bowsprit and with a tent covering her to hide the damage.

On a lighter note, to my knowledge, the car skewering episode happened a number of times in various places over the many years she was in service…even the STA van got clobbered once by the bowsprit in Weymouth when she was turning!
After that, they always turned the other way in Weymouth with the stern towards the quay!
 
Searush said:
They towed the SS Great Britain back from the Falklands as a hulk. Mind you they made a nice job of tidying her up in the end - but not much sailing left in her.
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She crossed the Atlantic on a barge - only the very last bit, from Avonmouth to Bristol, was made on her own. Golly, how I wish I'd been there to see her come home.
 
Searush said:
It's a long way up the rigging to furl a sail when reefing in a blow & the motion is worse, the higher you climb. I was sent aloft when already feeling green once, knowing working aloft was voluntary I asked to be excused. "Get up there & stop moaning" I was told,
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I remember a similar instance on the Royalist on the way to Dartmouth - we had been sent aloft to reduce the amount of sail and I was on the end of the top yard - a precarious place a the best of times and the boat was rocking such that it was possible to look directly down to one side of the ship and then the other! The guy next to me wasn't the happiest aloft and proceeded to lose the entire contents of his stomach - luckily I saw it happening and shouted a warning below. It was what happened next that was the tough bit - he wouldn't bloody move! The Bosun had to come up and prize him from his spot and get him down - it took forever and I have never seen anyone alive look quite as white as he did on that day!
 
dancrane said:
What would health and safety say?
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Read the MAIB report on the unfortunate death on Royalist last year. They have some specific (and relatively minor) recommendations for the way the Sea Cadets run their ship, but don't object to the general principles of how modern square-riggers operate.

Pete
 
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