Sandbanks ferry shocker, 2008

[VO5]

A motorboat with an outboard engine attempts to haul the dinghy off...and begins to succeed...and then lets go of the tow completely..surely if he had persisted and got the dinghy bow to tide then seconds later the RNLI could have taken over the tow, or did the motorboater panic, thinking he would be towed under too ?

 

[Seajet]

VO5,

the tide at that point is ferocious; I'd like to think I'd have jumped in to help the lady ( who as I understand it, well...was not in the first flush of youth ) and maybe helped her under the ferry, but apart from the surprisingly quick action of the RNLI boat going to the far side I can't imagine what people on boats could do.

 

[Seajet]

The ferry was the give way vessel. He just misjudged it.

More details: http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/bramble-bush-bay.pdf

They changed the rules afterwards.

I have been into Poole many times, since 1978; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to avoid the chain ferry - there are clear signals when it's moving -, or realise what limitations the skipper of that thing has.

 

[prv]

If it's the incident I'm thinking of, then:

1.

If the rate is regular right across the entrance, isn't it a pretty grave misjudgement of steering, that lays any vessel so close to a tethered obstacle like the ferry?

At the time, the rules required the ferry to give way to everyone else. Trouble is, due to the complicated situation, the ferry came out a bit, then started going back again, then stopped, then out again, etc etc. Classic trying-to-avoid-each-other-in-a-corridor dance, and why they changed the rules after this accident to give the ferry right of way over most vessels.

2.

I'm a little surprised that they didn't try climbing onto the ferry.

One of them did, using the grab-ropes, ladder, and entry door provided for the purpose.

Pete

 

[dt4134]

I have been into Poole many times, since 1978; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to avoid the chain ferry - there are clear signals when it's moving -, or realise what limitations the skipper of that thing has.

I was hoping you might read the report and get some facts before posting again.

The yachts knew the chain ferry was the give way vessel and the chain ferry knew that too. It was a matter of finding a gap to cross and he misjudged it. The leading XOD yachts had lost steerage and the chain ferry reversed but collided with the next group. They'd lost steerage too and had neither you nor a rocket scientist on board to put any wind back in the sails so they could avoid the reversing ferry.

Go on, read the report then comment intelligently.

 

[Seajet]

I was hoping you might read the report and get some facts before posting again.

The yachts knew the chain ferry was the give way vessel and the chain ferry knew that too. It was a matter of finding a gap to cross and he misjudged it. The leading XOD yachts had lost steerage and the chain ferry reversed but collided with the next group. They'd lost steerage too and had neither you nor a rocket scientist on board to put any wind back in the sails so they could avoid the reversing ferry.

Go on, read the report then comment intelligently.

I have plenty of intelligence when it comes to sailing,
enough to know I don't mess with chain ferries in transit for the sake of a few racing points; if you inhabit the real world, let alone are a sailor, you'd understand what problems the chap in charge of the chain ferry is faced with.

I remember a report on a young Naval Officer, " shows great skill in getting out of situations he should never have got into ! "

So goes it for the X-boat crew, down to the skipper.

P.S, I had read the report before I posted the first time...

 

[rob2]

I was surprised that rules were changed. More years ago than I care to remember, when doing RYA evening classes, i remember being taught that a chain ferry is legally a bridge and as such anyone who hit it was in the wrong!

Rob.

 

[Robin]

As Tranona says, at the time the rules were that the chain ferry must give way, it is a chain ferry and can stop/start at will. In my experience the practice was completely different, either from intent or ignorance of how and when to give way. Poole entrance with the tide running hard is a difficult place and incidentally one of many reasons why it is essential that the anchorage at Studland is not lost.

We were fortunate in our last two boats and last 24 years to have decent size and reliable engines, on a 33ft and 41ft boat but before those we had smaller boats and puny engines. Even so it was difficult to fight the tide here at springs, so imagine that in a small boat with a small engine, let alone in an engineless one. The X-Boat BTW is a long keeled, wooden, open decked race boat and with of course no engine, the design dates back over 100 years and their association has it's centenary this year. This is not a slick lightweight modern flyer. The lady crew swept under the ferry was in her 70's, so lucky to get away alive.

We were once entering in our then W33, going in with a 4kt+ spring tide and with a F7-F8 tailwind. There was just us and one other boat heading for the entrance and despite that the ferry chose to leave and try to cross ahead of us which was bad enough but then it decided to stop in the middle, effectively blocking us completely. A crash gybe and a lot of luck had us just find the gap on the Sandbanks side whilst the other boat found the other one on the Studland side. There have been many similar incidents over the years and still are. I suspect the ferry drivers do not understand that in some circumstances boats in the channel become fully committed to going with the flow and it matters not that the ferry has just now put their flashing light on and pulled out, because there is nothing the small boats can then do except pray.

It is very easy to make armchair comments and again as Tranona says things have changed since, in that the ferry now has right of way at all times just like it always acted anyway and the local yacht clubs have more rescue boats riding shotgun to cover the fleets going in/out.

 

[Dockhead]

Poole Harbour is one of the craziest places I have ever sailed. I was there yesterday. Even decent sized cruising boats under sail will tack right under your bows -- I'm not even mentioning the dinghies, swarms of which are always trying to commit suicide with your help. The channel is a prime fishing spot, apparently -- yesterday, there were three good sized fishing boats right in the middle of the channel with lines out (what would happen when the Condor ferry appears??). The idea that a vessel might be constrained by draught to the channel is apparently unknown to Poole sailors. One cruising boat under sail making way in up the channel on the extreme port side of the channel (confusing with English roads, perhaps?) just about forced us onto the mud banks, whilst glaring at us for even being there. I love Poole (otherwise, wouldn't go there so often) but it is a crazy place -- sailing there is a bit like driving in Cairo.

 

[Robin]

I have plenty of intelligence when it comes to sailing,
enough to know I don't mess with chain ferries in transit for the sake of a few racing points; if you inhabit the real world, let alone are a sailor, you'd understand what problems the chap in charge of the chain ferry is faced with.

I remember a report on a young Naval Officer, " shows great skill in getting out of situations he should never have got into ! "

So goes it for the X-boat crew, down to the skipper.

P.S, I had read the report before I posted the first time...

Sorry Seajet, but your prejudices are overcoming your knowledge in this case. I could give you multiple examples of near misses that were nothing to do with racing boats but everything to do with a ferry driver with at best little appreciation of the problems boats transiting this narrow entrance have at times, but at worst maybe one that likes to wait until he sees the whites of their eyes then go out regardless. I gave one example earlier, there was no need for the ferry action then, it was not busy, we and the other boat would have been clear in maybe two minutes or less and there were no queues of cars waiting, plus back then he was supposed to give way to all.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Between the ferry and people driving straight off the ramp and into the water I wouldn't be surprised if that particular little bit of water had claimed more lives than the Corryvreckan. The one thing I never understood with that particular incident was why they didn't slowly move the ferry towards Sandbanks rather than stay right where the current's strongest, but then it's easy to be wise after the the event.

 

[dt4134]

I have plenty of intelligence when it comes to sailing,
enough to know I don't mess with chain ferries in transit for the sake of a few racing points; if you inhabit the real world, let alone are a sailor, you'd understand what problems the chap in charge of the chain ferry is faced with.

I remember a report on a young Naval Officer, " shows great skill in getting out of situations he should never have got into ! "

So goes it for the X-boat crew, down to the skipper.

P.S, I had read the report before I posted the first time...

You've not shown much signs of having read the report, more just the usual s-eejit know-it-all approach.

No one said the XOD skipper was messing with a chain ferry for the sake of a few racing points. Certainly not the MAIB report. They were leaving the harbour with the tide in an engineless boat without steerage way, having incidentally lost the wind because they obeyed rule 9 of the IRPCS. The chain ferry (at the time) was giveway vessel and there seems no doubt he was try his best to get across but misjudged it. The would have been no collision with the XOD skiiper you're criticising if the chain ferry hadn't reversed course (albeit he'd have collided with others).

They did recognise the chap in charge of the chain ferry had a difficult task and changed the rules afterwards.

 

[prv]

i remember being taught that a chain ferry is legally a bridge and as such anyone who hit it was in the wrong!

I would always check in the case of an unfamiliar ferry, but I believe most are required to always give way - the opposite of your bridge idea. Certainly the Cowes one is always give-way, though it's obviously polite to clear out of his way as quickly as possible. The Poole ferry is an exception, in which the rule was changed due to this specific accident, with the aim of reducing confusion.

Pete

 

[Greenheart]

Only asking...

If indeed the ferry may start, stop and reverse unpredictably in order to avoid collisions, might it not be every skipper's best and safest plan, to aim only ever to pass astern of the ferry? If such a custom was accepted and observed, the ferry wouldn't often have reason to halt or reverse.

I know it wouldn't be convenient if dozens of boats were bunching up, trying to slacken their pace to avoid passing ahead of the ferry, but it looks to me (I admit I hardly know Poole) that the ferry's obligation to keep clear in the entrance, isn't appropriate. (Or wasn't...I'm not 100% clear what the rule is now.)

Its necessity to stop and even reverse to avoid traffic, seems mostly a source of problems. If sober sailors can steer a responsible course based on the ferry's apparent movement, then find too late that its progress has ceased without warning, surely the only safe proximity is a course that will pass the ferry's stern?

As long as it's free for all but the ferry, who knows when your path may be blocked because its path was? If it was a nimble little thing able to flit out of the way, the problem would hardly arise.

I have breezed through the report, not word by word. Thanks to he who posted it.

Let's pray the issue stays non-lethal.

 

[Greenheart]

Seen what those XODs are worth?

http://www.xonedesign.org.uk/forsale.html

I'm not surprised the boat sunk that day wasn't found! She's probably afloat down at Morbihan, quietly enjoying pampered retirement.

 

[prv]

it looks to me (I admit I hardly know Poole) that the ferry's obligation to keep clear in the entrance, isn't appropriate. (Or wasn't...I'm not 100% clear what the rule is now.)

"Wasn't". The ferry now has right of way over most vessels (I think not cross-channel ferries etc) due to recommendations made by the MAIB after this accident. Not sure why you're confused, several people have said so clearly in this thread.

Pete

 

[Seajet]

You've not shown much signs of having read the report, more just the usual s-eejit know-it-all approach.

No one said the XOD skipper was messing with a chain ferry for the sake of a few racing points. Certainly not the MAIB report. They were leaving the harbour with the tide in an engineless boat without steerage way, having incidentally lost the wind because they obeyed rule 9 of the IRPCS. The chain ferry (at the time) was giveway vessel and there seems no doubt he was try his best to get across but misjudged it. The would have been no collision with the XOD skiiper you're criticising if the chain ferry hadn't reversed course (albeit he'd have collided with others).

They did recognise the chap in charge of the chain ferry had a difficult task and changed the rules afterwards.

I certainly don't know it all, but I do know to keep clear of chain ferries !

So 'he might have reversed course but that would have risked collision with others' ?! Presumably that's OK if they weren't X boats then...it's quite normal, and predictable, to lose the wind at that point.

The X was sailed by locals who should have been - and were - aware of the chain ferry & conditions at the harbour entrance, even as a visitor to Poole I am; in an engineless boat you don't play chicken with a ferry - even with an engine one can be almost static if the full tide is running - and 'right of way' is a distinct second best to seamanship & common sense, as the lady who was swept underneath found out the hard way.

 

[Robin]

If indeed the ferry may start, stop and reverse unpredictably in order to avoid collisions, might it not be every skipper's best and safest plan, to aim only ever to pass astern of the ferry? If such a custom was accepted and observed, the ferry wouldn't often have reason to halt or reverse.

I know it wouldn't be convenient if dozens of boats were bunching up, trying to slacken their pace to avoid passing ahead of the ferry, but it looks to me (I admit I hardly know Poole) that the ferry's obligation to keep clear in the entrance, isn't appropriate. (Or wasn't...I'm not 100% clear what the rule is now.)

Its necessity to stop and even reverse to avoid traffic, seems mostly a source of problems. If sober sailors can steer a responsible course based on the ferry's apparent movement, then find too late that its progress has ceased without warning, surely the only safe proximity is a course that will pass the ferry's stern?

As long as it's free for all but the ferry, who knows when your path may be blocked because its path was? If it was a nimble little thing able to flit out of the way, the problem would hardly arise.

I have breezed through the report, not word by word. Thanks to he who posted it.

Let's pray the issue stays non-lethal.

Firstly, this is a very narrow entrance through which the tide flows very fast. The flow is strong enough either side of the entrance, but it probably doubles in the entrance proper such that on a full spring ebb most yachts would find it very difficult to make any ground against it if at all, so you may imagine the speed of exit if heading outbound as was the X-Boat and which could be seen with others in the video. Secondly pretty well everyone with any sense will only ever try to pass astern of the ferry once it is moving, for the simple reason that it's chains are lifted as it moves forwards, the chains go taut and you could get caught up on them, behind it the chains are slack and drop clear. Boats that do pass ahead are either too committed to their course before the ferry even decides to leave (very common), or are small powered boats with more speed and often less brainpower.

We would always hope that as we approached the entrance, the ferry would just be crossing because that would allow us plenty of time to go astern of it or better still it would be unloading on the opposite side and therefore no risk by the time we reached it. However judging your timing is not easy because the tide is often the one in charge of it. Very often on entry you will see the ferry loading or unloading and the entrance completely clear, yet by the time you get there and are committed, out it comes and now do you carry on ahead of it or try and turn astern of it or do a 180 and try to get clear against the tide. Remember you are affected by the tide, the ferry is tethered and is not.

Personally I don't like the rule change after this incident that gave the ferry right of way over all others. However in practice that change only reflected what the ferry was doing anyway most of the time, it didn't change much at all.

 

[sighmoon]

If indeed the ferry may start, stop and reverse unpredictably in order to avoid collisions, might it not be every skipper's best and safest plan, to aim only ever to pass astern of the ferry? If such a custom was accepted and observed, the ferry wouldn't often have reason to halt or reverse.

I know it wouldn't be convenient if dozens of boats were bunching up, trying to slacken their pace to avoid passing ahead of the ferry, but it looks to me (I admit I hardly know Poole) that the ferry's obligation to keep clear in the entrance, isn't appropriate. (Or wasn't...I'm not 100% clear what the rule is now.)

Its necessity to stop and even reverse to avoid traffic, seems mostly a source of problems. If sober sailors can steer a responsible course based on the ferry's apparent movement, then find too late that its progress has ceased without warning, surely the only safe proximity is a course that will pass the ferry's stern?

As long as it's free for all but the ferry, who knows when your path may be blocked because its path was? If it was a nimble little thing able to flit out of the way, the problem would hardly arise.

I have breezed through the report, not word by word. Thanks to he who posted it.

Let's pray the issue stays non-lethal.

It sounds like this boat tried going round the back, as you suggest, but got reversed into.

 

[Boathook]

I have found over the years that the ferry does try to leave when there is a sensible gap between boats. The possible exception is on a Sunday afternoon when there is no gap between boats heading back in so the ferry now just goes. In fairness to the ferry, it has always been to my mind fairly obivious when it is about to depart as the landing ramp is raised. This is normally followed by the ball and then the flashing light before it inches forward. I suspect that like all skippers the ferry ones have good and bad days.