Salvage....settle an arguement

[Joe_Cole]

Can anyone tell me when can salvage be claimed? Could it be claimed on, say, a boat in a Marina which was in danger of sinking?

Just interested, but personally I would never even think of claiming salvage for simply towing a boat in!

Joe

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[Cornishman]

I think you might be right about the marina situation, although I bet the marina will poke its oar in pretty quickly.

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[StugeronSteve]

The small print of my berthing agreement says something on the lines of:
The marina accepts no responsibility for the care of an ownwers vessel, however, where the marina staff become aware of a problem with a boat (ie. breaking free), they will take such steps as necessary to resecure etc, at the owners cost.

I do know of someone who had a seacock fail on their berth. The marina noticed the boat starting to sit lower, opened her up to investigate, then called the owner and sought permission for a crane out.

I have every confidence that the harbour staff in my marina would identify a problem and make sure harm was minimised. I do think that a marina would have serious objections to a salvage operation taking place without their, and the owners, express consent.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Guest]

Marina aware of problems ?

I can think of some marinas that would not know if a boat sank alongside..... but I cannot name as I could be held for libel ..... difficult to prove my case !

Most marina's have a wreck removal / sort of salvage clause in the agreement somewhere - thats why Insurance has it included - otherwise you could be in vilation of Marina codes etc. The clause normally expects you via your Insurance Co. to undertakle wreck removal of your craft should it sink / CTL .... - this may mean they are paid to lift or you call in a suitable machinery to do the job.

Salvage is a subject that is very wide and open - that is why such docs as Lloyds Open Salvage Forms etc. came about .... normally no salvage company does anything till they get agreement or go-ahead from an interested party - too costly to do work and then not be paid / get salvage ...... except where iit is open waters and the object to be salvaged is not in title or dispute ....

Alognside salvage - I think that would be a very grey area for them to get involved in and it would be down to owners / marina / insurance co. to sort.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[AlexL]

Re: Marina aware of problems ?

I think the law is whatever anyone wants it to be - there have been a few high profile cases of serious salvage in the past where people risked personal investment and danger to salvage high value cargos - gold , silver etc. only to have the respective governments (britain included) turn round and effectively confiscate all proceeds.

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[copterdoctor]

Re: Marina aware of problems ?

For what it's worth (not a lot) the Navy had to pay salvage after one of it's Harriers made a forced landing on a Spanish ship.

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[alant]

Basic rules, according to the RYA legal expert are, if someone hands you a line (& you take it) in order to save lives/hull/cargo, it is Salvage.
But, if you hand them your line, it becomes Towage.
Salvage compensation has strict rules (Lloyds) & is decided by a Judge. Value of cargo & hull, lives saved & risk involved.
Towage is an agreement between 2 parties decided at outset.
Don't know how sinking at a Marina Berth fits into this.

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[Guest]

Harrier ....

I had the press cutting somewhere ......

But I remember that it got out of range in bad viz. and landed to the amazement on a dry-cargo spanish coaster. She couldn't get off agin without help - as the main wheels dropped bewteen the hatch-covers. The spanish crew refused to give her up till they rec'd some incentive ! Good story ......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[MASH]

I had a feeling that salvage could only occur in international waters and that recovery of a vessel in difficulty in national waters was treated in a different way from a legal pont of view.

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[cliff]

The figure of 10% comes to mind as the MINIMUM salvage compensation.

Golden rule "NEVER accept another vessels warps - use your own if possible" otherwise you would be in a salvage situation not towage.

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[beachbum]

Surely all the law relating to "salvage" is applicable only at sea ?
A marina (unlike a harbour) is usually private property.
The situation in a harbour may or may not be subject to salvage law, that may be a grey area, but I'd be amazed if it applies in a marina.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Nobody is perfect.
I am nobody.
Therefore I am perfect.</font size=1> /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

 

[alant]

Re: Warps and Salvage.

Sorry to disagree, but this was stated as such by Edmund Whelan, Barrister at Law, RYA Legal guru on a Marine Law Course. Also stating that "in 'Towage', the towed vessel is in charge, but in Salvage, the towing vessel is in charge."
Also "HOUSE OF LORDS - OPINIONS OF THE LORDS OF APPEAL FOR JUDGMENT - LORD MUSTILL -
My Lords,
The law of maritime salvage is old, and for much of its long history it was simple. The reward for successful salvage was always large; for failure it was nil. At first, the typical salvor was one who happened on a ship in distress, and used personal efforts and property to effect a rescue."
The applicable words being "used personal efforts and property to effect a rescue." suggesting that the salvors lines/ropes are used rather than those of the salvee.
Rewards coming under specific salvage agreements, usually Lloyds Open List.
Must be some experts out there to clarify further.



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[AndrewB]

Salvage Principles

The general principles of salvage are discussed very fully in the RYA booklet G9 "Yachtsman's Lawyer" price £8.75.

The underlying principles governing a salvage claim are:

- The service must be used by legally recognisable subjects of salvage, that is to say, any vessel or property in danger in navigable waters. Property includes any property not permanently and intentionally attached to the shoreline, and includes freight at risk;

- The service must be voluntary and not under a pre-arranged contract;

- The subject of salvage must be in danger;

- The service must either be successful or prevent or minimise damage to the environment;

- The service must be performed in tidal waters including harbours.

If I understand this correctly, salvage could be performed on a drifting yacht in a tidal marina, if an element of danger to the yacht was involved, but not by marina staff themselves because of their contractual position regarding the care of the yacht. The amount can be set at any level by the Court, there is no minimum but in practice it is never more than half the vessel's value.

The successful salvor holds a 'maritime lien', the right to have the vessel arrested and sold to meet his salvage claim. Because of this, the salvor has the right to temporarily retain the rescued vessel if it is derelict or the owner can't be traced, but this does not normally allow him to refuse the owner having access.

It is unlikely that a disputed salvage claim would turn solely on whose ropes were used for towing. (This is certainly not "basic" to salvage. I'd be interested if anyone knows where this often quoted myth originated).

 

[davidbuttriss]

Re: Salvage Principles

Not sure about the rights and wrongs but was paid salvage twice whilst serving in the RN. The first time as part of the firefighting teams which put out a fire on a large container carrier in Gulf of Mexico, which was then taken in tow by tugs to Galveston. very exciting with tank lids bursting off and coloumns of flames. The next a Dutch trawler whose engineer had opened a strainer box without shutting the seacock and subsequently couldn't get the lid back on with the north sea honking in. Attempts at pumping were futile and as the engine room flooded so did the fish hold as none of the through bulkhead cabled, pipes or even a door were watertight. On both occasions the first thing our XO did was get the master to sign a Lloyds open form.

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[Dominic]

The Towline Myth

It is unlikely that a disputed salvage claim would turn solely on whose ropes were used for towing. (This is certainly not "basic" to salvage. I'd be interested if anyone knows where this often quoted myth originated.)

One might use these scenarios as a rough guide - which then suggest how the myth originated.

If the crew of the towed vessel were a bunch of headless chickens or incapacitated and unable to rig their own tow rope then they might be considered to be saved (or salvaged).

If the crew of the casualty were able to control thier situation and prepare a tow line for use by the towing vessel then they were not saved, just towed.

This is just a personal opinion of how the "my towline"/"your towline" question came about.

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[BrianJ]

Re: Salvage Principles

While sailing down from Fiji to Auckland once, we came across an abondoned yacht.
We contacted Auckland radio, etc etc .. within 30 minutes we spoke to the owner.. to cut a long story short, we took her in tow till we handed the tow over to another " rescue" yacht.. wuith the owner on board. We had NO salvage rights ,could have charged a fee ..which we did = one cold beer on arrival Auckland for the 3 of us... the tow was in some pretty rough condituions , but thats another story
BrianJ

<hr width=100% size=1>BrianJ