Salvage Law - Any Practical Experience?

H

Harpsden

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A question On QI on the BBC about Flotsam and Jetsam lead into a discussion about Ligan, Derelict and Savage Law. That lead me to dig into the subject with google and found this useful summary of the practical implications for pleasure craft owners.

Law Of Salvate

Which has some interesting points including the issue of who gives who the tow rope.

It's all very interesting reading the theory and advice but I wondered what practical experience and advice might be available from forum members in case the problem occurs one day! Given the number of times in the summer that there is a call on Channel 16 to see if anyone can give a tow to a craft in the Solent, Christchurch Bay and Poole Bay, it's clearly a common event.



Harpsden
 
last year my son and I rescued a yacht in distress in portugal. There was no thought of 'salvage' being claimed by myself, and for me there never would be. It was just a question of helping out a fellow yachtie.

However a friend, a moboer on the pontoon in the marina who I know to be a very generous and considerate man, said he would only have acted under a Lloyds open form.

I suppose its just down to how you view life. I regard helpng out people if I can as a moral duty and salvage as making money out of someones misfortune, I was happy for the offered 'thank you' meal and making a new friend. My mate would have probably only used lof to recover his costs (his mobo has a serious drink problem).

Interestingly , a portugese fishing boat that also assisted, also declined any reward.
 
Thanks for that; my own view on the subject is the same as yours. Having had an engine failure at sea myself (temporarily dealt with well enough to get into port) I'd just want to help someone in trouble or needing a tow if I could.

From reading on the subject I was wondering if anyone had had problems with salvage being claimed/demanded (if that is the right expression) when they needed help.


Harpsden
 
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From reading on the subject I was wondering if anyone had had problems with salvage being claimed/demanded (if that is the right expression) when they needed help.

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It rather depends if the salvor suffered any negative financial impact they would not have incurred by not carrying out the salvage ...

I towed a sinking laser with 2 girls back to their sailing club - a good 3/4hour out of our way and probably significant fuel compared to just returning home - it is an affluent club - so members would be worth a bob or two - even if the laser wasn't worth anything! - but didn't even cross my mind about charging for the "service" ... they were just two ppl in need of help!

We've also towed a Mobo away from danger whilst waiting for SeaStart ... didn't think about "salvage" then either ... happy enough with a good "thank you" - anything more is a bonus!
 
I think that demanding salvage could be quite involved and depends on the degree of assistance provided and the danger the salvaged vessel was in.

As others have already said I'm sure most sailors would offer without hesiataion and expect no reward. A thankyou and a bottle of something would be more than enough. Who knows when it might be yourself asking for help?
 
I was involved in a case off Holland 2-3 years ago.

The tricks played are dirty.

This was a BH weekend.

A £400 000 boat grounded in semi sheltered water 200meters from marina entrance.
F4

A VHF call was made and a local yard boat went to help.

The skipper of the grounded boat tried to offer money and agree a price.

The tug said it was all a set price that would be sorted later.

Back on the Quayside the skipper again tried to pay cash for the 200 m tow.


The owner was forced to give his Insurance details, the Insurers offered £6000 as that was the maximum that could be agreed on a BH weekend.

The owner was told the boat was under arrest and he could not leave until his Insurers agreed to pay the costs.

What are the costs

Dont know but your Insurers have to agree to an open cheque.

The owner decided that if no one was there to say how much was due to be paid then there would be no one there able to arrange the arrest of the boat.
He sailed away.

The final cost was set at about £7500

The tug just handed the claim to a specialised firm who went for full salvage that is based on

Value of boat
risk to damage of boat
risk to damage of rescue boat

who owns which bit of rope did not make any difference.

Now before we get too incensed at the £7500 paid you need to think about our RNLI and how lucky we are to have such a lot of boats and volunteers to standby.

If you are sinking in the rest of the world you need someone, there are special rescue companies listening out for boats in distress.
If they did not get paid £7 500 for a £200 job then they would not bother to listen for our calls for help.

The Law should actually go further and make it compulsory for any boat to accept offers of help.

If you think back 3-4 years when the Oil Tanker was grounded off Wales, there was a large tug available that the tanker owners refused help from in the hope that the Tanker would float off and avoid salvage.

In effect it was cheaper for the Tanker to sink (insurance pay for loss of ship and cargo) and spill its oil than pay out for a tow from a tug which is standing by and has spent £500 000 a year to be in a position to standby waiting for such a call.
 
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The Law should actually go further and make it compulsory for any boat to accept offers of help.

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Hmm - I think not ....

If I've grounded my vessel I don't want to be forced into accepting a tow off - especially if I can just wait for the tide to come in - rather assumes my vessel is not causing danger to anyone else and not likely to cause additional pollution/destruction to the environment ...
 
From the comments I'm really bothered I've given the wrong impression with my question - that I wanted to know how to claim salvage. I don't - I put the posting up from the angle of how to avoid the sort of issues raised by DAKA if I was to get into difficulties.

I need to be very careful how I phrase things I guess. I'm sorry if I wound anybody up!


Harpsden
 
To date I have helped 2 yachts & 3 mobos Three of them were silly jobs ie the yachts. one was stuck on a sandbank & the other pinned against the pontoon by high wind. both simple tow off jobs thanked by a couple of bottles of wine The other a moboat with his anchor stuck under a rock The other 2 were a bit more involved. One was in a bad squall & the two occupants of a small open 18' speed boat were lucky to be alive, freezing cold, no fuel, life jackets or coats & involved a 20 nm round trip. the final one was also a 20nm round trip but in good weather. I would not consider trying to stuff them with salvage rights the only reward I asked for was the cost of fuel used. In contrast I have been towed in twice when my then single stern drive failed. Both times the boats who helped me declined any reward apart from fuel costs.
 
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From the comments I'm really bothered I've given the wrong impression with my question - that I wanted to know how to claim salvage. I don't - I put the posting up from the angle of how to avoid the sort of issues raised by DAKA if I was to get into difficulties.

I need to be very careful how I phrase things I guess. I'm sorry if I wound anybody up!


Harpsden

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No you didn't give that impression at all so no need to apologise. I think the topic/thread just wandered off into a general discussion re salvage.
 
My claim to fame, with regard to, salvage was in 1979, mid week before the CTC ,Dry Martini was drifting down towards Hurst on a outgoing tide, on board was three Itailians, and two yanks, the yanks had the engine covers up trying to get her going again, I asked if they wanted a tow, they all refused, I stayed with them, and as they approached the hole at hurst I asked again, but added I'm not here for the salvage, I'm a fan, with that the yanks threw me a line, I dragged a 9 ton class 1 racer from Hurst back to HMS Vernon, at a cost to me of 40 gallons of petrol, I was gutted as I watched my precious weekends worth of fuel vanish!

The up side to this story is that the team manager thanked me very much for my help, and would I like to come back to Vernon tomorrow to go out on Dry Martini,

Of course I said no thanks, I only wanted to help, Yeah, right, get a grip,

I was refueled and back over to Vernon by 6.30 the next morning.
one day in my life I will never forget, blitzing down the Solent at 80mph in a class 1 powerboat,unforgettable, but no salvage /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Having both rescued and been rescued would always render any practical and sensible assistance without condition,if needed making plain that no reward was expected or desired.
 
One calm night many years ago I was in a friends sailing boat, temporarily engineless, heading down channel, just passing away from the Goodwins when, to cut a long story short, Dover Coastguard told us the Dover lifeboat was on its way to tow us in. We didn't consider ourselves in danger but, reluctantly resigning ourselves to the Coastguards arrangements, set about rigging up a tow bridle and could soon see the lifeboat, lights blazing, hurtling towards us at impressive speed. When it arrived I waited on the foredeck to receive a line from them while they manoeuvred to get close to us, but found it hard to see what was happening because of their lights in my eyes. At which point one of my fellows spotted that this wasn't the lifeboat at all, but a fishing boat. This had presumably heard the radio traffic and thought there might be a few bob in it for them. We declined their 'kind' offer, and by this time could see the real lifeboat just about to arrive.
 
Have been towed home when Mercury outboard broke down and the Seagull refused (how unusual) to start.

Have towed back a powerboat whose outboard broke down. One hour out of my time.

Have rescued an Aqua-Finn (like a Sunfish) with two uouths on board - they had tied their lifejackets to the mast and that stopped the boat sinking which also allowed me to see the boat was in distress (only bow sticking out of water).

Rescued a couple swimming in from a mile out off Four Seasons in Nevis. Their dinghy had capsized and they had abandoned it to swim(?) back to shore. Her with one remaining shoe in one hand and him with their beach bag (with towels etc) in the other.

No charges were made in any of them

You hope that others will treat you as you have treated others.
 
My insurer has some good insights. The law of salvage really doesn't hinge on the rope. It was designed centuries ago in order not to lose shipping tonnage. If you rescue a boat (and its crew) then roughly 60% of it becomes yours, unless you declare that you will waive that right (as most reasonable people would) and offer a tow for convenience.

If you really must claim, then you are entitled to pay out by the insurance company. The owner keeps the boat, you get the money, the insurer would rather pay 60% than 100% for a complete wreck.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My insurer has some good insights. The law of salvage really doesn't hinge on the rope. It was designed centuries ago in order not to lose shipping tonnage. If you rescue a boat (and its crew) then roughly 60% of it becomes yours, unless you declare that you will waive that right (as most reasonable people would) and offer a tow for convenience.

If you really must claim, then you are entitled to pay out by the insurance company. The owner keeps the boat, you get the money, the insurer would rather pay 60% than 100% for a complete wreck.

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I helped pull a boat off the beach only this morning. The skipper of the boat doing the job is an ex salvage ship skipper. I asked him about this tow rope 'myth' and he told me that is was still vitally important to offer your rope to the towing vessel as that can limit your (Insurance company) liability to paying just a towing fee rather than a salvage fee.
 
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he told me that is was still vitally important to offer your rope to the towing vessel as that can limit your (Insurance company) liability to paying just a towing fee rather than a salvage fee.

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I'd have thought, in that case, that if the tower is in it for the money he'll just refuse to take your rope and insist you take his, on a take it or leave it basis
 
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Well, take 5 must owe me a fortune, trouble is, his ropes fitted his cleats much better than mine. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

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The Case would go to Court.

Be like the War of the Roses.

'In the Case of'
'tight Yorkshire newbie, Verses crafty old Veg man from Lancs' Yer Honour!


/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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