Salcombe - the Harbour Master has written to me...

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
Dear John

Salcombe Harbour - Fees and Charges for Visiting Yachts 2008

I understand from xxxxx that you had a long conversation with her in the Rugby Club about Salcombe and the cost of a visit and the "unseemly haste" with which some of my staff persue the collection of harbour dues. Thank you for this feedback, it is something I am acutely aware of and will be working hard to rectify in the coming months.

We have made some progress on the cost issue and the Salcombe Harbour Board has recently agreed the fees and charges for 2008/9. Charges for visiting yachtsmen have been frozen for a second consecutive year at £1.80/metre/night for a pontoon or swinging mooring and water taxi fares have been maintained at the 2005 rates. Additionally the board have approved the introduction of the following discounts and promotions:

- A stay of three nights or more during July or August, paid for on arrival is rewarded with a voucher for a free night in September or October.

- A stay of three nights or more outside July or August, paid for on arrival is rewarded with a fourth night free.

- Weekly moorings and dues, paid for on arrival will be charged at 5.5 times the daily rate.

- Craft attending events, including owners club, yacht club cruises and rallies etc are offered a discount of 20% where the sum is collected en-bloc by the organising body.

- Vessels stormbound, except in July and August, may at the discretion of the harbour master be offered a 50% reduction in mooring charges after the first three days to a maximum of 7 days after arrival. Thereafter full charges will be levied.

- During May and September there will be a 25% reduction on the full rate of harbour dues and mooring charges

- From October to April (not including Easter weekend) there will be a 50% discount on the full rate of harbour dues and mooring charges.

- Water taxis tickets sold in books of 20 will be between 35% and 33% cheaper than the cost of an individual fare.

We hope to be able to welcome you back to Salcombe next season.

Ian Gibson
Harbour Master

[/ QUOTE ]

I have repeated his letter verbatum with the exception of a footnote on the breakdown of exact costs of the water taxi. Don't shoot the messenger, I have been as frustrated as anyone about Salcombe's charges. Not too sure that its a bargain by anyone's standards, but I will see what others think on this forum.

If you want to comment, congratulate or complain directly to the Harbour Master, pm me for his e-mail. Its probably not fair to put it on the public forum.

 

[hlb]

Ian Gibson Harbour Master and his staff, have always beeen excelent and could not do enough for us when we had the minor sinking do.
It's the council that have kept increasing the charges, regardless of the HM's advise. Looks like he's now getting through to them.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Well, its a start.... but it doesn't completely address the key issues IMHO....

If they are perceived to be expensive (rightly or wrongly) then just freezing prices won't achieve their goal.... they'll end up being much more competitive in a few years, but people won't see it that way.... the only answer to changing perception is price cuts... it still sounds like a massive amount of money to me for a mooring for the night.....enough to put me off for sure....

Secondly, unless I am in a minority, most sailors won't want to stop 3 nights, and will only be there for one night, maybe two.....

However, I wouldn't want this to come across as pure criticism, as it is obvious that they recognise that there is a problem, and are trying to address it, for which they deserve credit.

 

[rwoofer]

Thanks for passing on.

This is getting like our complicated tax system - an admin nightmare to give someone else a job to then use to justify the fees. If they just reduced prices, they wouldn't have to come with all these discounts schemes that none of us will remember. Hasn't changed my mind on avoiding Salcombe.

No mention of anchoring or did I miss it?

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to comment, congratulate or complain directly to the Harbour Master, pm me for his e-mail. Its probably not fair to put it on the public forum

[/ QUOTE ] Nothing secret about it its on the website. http://www.salcombeharbour.co.uk/

Also his mugshot

 

[jerryat]

You are exactly right. Freezing prices doesn't help except, in the much longer term, when they eventually become on a par with a similar (lack of) facilities elsewhere.

After our experiences many years ago, I wouldn't want to spend a day in the place, let alone three days, but others might. I won't be returning anytime soon despite the harbourmasters efforts. Once bitten.......

 

[hlb]

Agreed, it does look more like a PAYE form, than an incentive. Who wants to stay more nights than planned, except for storms of course. Loads of places give forth night for free, who the hell wants to stay four nights. Now, second night free, might be an incentive.

Mind, I also find no reason for free anchoring in harbours, you've used there lights and buoys to get in there and will doubtlessly want there help if you get problems. here are plenty of little bays to anchor in. Or do you want the extra security??

 

[john_morris_uk]

I hadn't see the website - but I also didn't want to be responsible for lots of spam arriving in his mailbox... He'd taken the trouble to write a nice polite (but complicated) letter to me and I didn't think it would have been a nice way to repay him.

Seems to me that the harbour has several problems.

1. No commercial traffic to generate major income. The yachtsmen pay for everything.

2. A local authority that doesn't understand the yachting industry. (The rumour is that the previous harbour board was full of people who knew nothing about boats!)

3. A harbour that is fullish in peak season, but underused at other times of the year. Hence the complicated discount scheme.

I was originally given to understand that your three nights didn't have to be consecutive. It appears from his letter that this is not the case.

 

[damo]

I think there is a difference between a natural harbour and one created by construction. A "natural" anchorage shouldn't be able to levy dues, IMO

 

[Robin]

Like others my reply is fairly predictable. I don't doubt that the HM is suffering council fools probably not gladly and is also a messenger.

Freezing harbour dues at their 2005 rates sounds like a Gordon Brown bit of smoke and mirrors, headline 'savings' but in reality still ripping off the market with too high a charge. Their rate is around 50% higher than Dartmouth, so how long would it take with inflation to get back to level pegging!

Most visitors other than local West Country based boats will be visiting in July/August. Staying 3 nights (for us nearly £66) would get a free night in September/October - no use whatsoever to us.

Staying 3 nights outside of July/August to get a 4th night free, woopee! Visiting yachts are transients, not many of us will want or be able to stay 4 nights in one spot. A typical 14 day cruise is 7 out and 7 back, not a lot of time for stopping in one spot for 4 nights - even if there were places locally to buy affordable provisions. Then again, do you miss a weather window to use the 'free' night?

Weekly rates at 5.5 times daily rate (but not in the main bit of the season) is 10% more than similar deals in France at pay 5 days for seven.

Yep, raft up say 6 deep for a rally and collect the fees for them in exchange for a 20% discount. 20% off the rate for us still means paying 25% more than for a similar mooring in Dartmouth, probably not rafted or at least no more than 2 up. So why not rally to Dartmouth instead and talk them into a discount? We get club rally discounts in lots of places, including in France.

Vessels stormbound... Well who defines a storm??? A storm to a 21 footer may be a good breeze to a bigger boat and what about the difference between waiting to go upwind say versus downwind, or 100mls instead of 10mls. All very subjective.

50% off in winter. Woopee.

Water taxi books in 20's for 33% off? No use to transients then.

This goes back to what I said before, that they really do NOT understand! To get people back is very much harder than to lose them in the first place. There is nothing here to make me think again, maybe there is for closer West Country boats but I doubt they would find it that exciting either.

 

[kengill]

Why are you seeking to encourage people to add visual pollution to the magnificent seascape. I'm sure if you wrote nicely to the National Trust they could bring appropriate pressure to bear on the Harbour Board to ensure that prices are raised so no-one has a boat there.

In fact, due to the aggregation rules under the European Public Procurement legislation and your kind publication on the net there may well now exist a formal duty on the Harbour Board to submit the rental of their moorings to formal bid to be published in the Journal Officiel de le Union Europeanne. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[longjohnsilver]

I seem to recall that you contacted him some time ago with no response. Maybe he was too busy rescuing hlb /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What they are offering seems to be of virtually no value to anyone, at best guess maybe 5% of visitors will gain a free day out of season. Whoopee, big deal. How many will make a special trip back to get their free day? Probably less than 5%.

And how many visiting boats stay for a week or more, again not many.

Seems they're giving bugger all away. Shame cos I still think it's one of the most beautiful places on the S coast.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall that you contacted him some time ago with no response. Maybe he was too busy rescuing hlb /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What they are offering seems to be of virtually no value to anyone, at best guess maybe 5% of visitors will gain a free day out of season. Whoopee, big deal. How many will make a special trip back to get their free day? Probably less than 5%.

And how many visiting boats stay for a week or more, again not many.

Seems they're giving bugger all away. Shame cos I still think it's one of the most beautiful places on the S coast.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't shoot the messenger - I agree with the points you make, although I wonder if my original e-mail ever got to the right people? I suspect that its out of the hands of the HM and he is as frustrated as anyone. As I have said before, when you talk to locals they are frustrated as well. up to 80% of houses in some areas of the town are holiday homes. House prices in Devon are high, but some parts of Salcombe are somewhere above the ionosphere. A 'certain sort of person' buys the houses and this means that for a few weeks in the summer the place is heaving with very wealthy (compared to the locals) people usually driving Chelsea tractors. To say that many of the shops are not the sort that you will find in your average small Devon town is an understatement and I think I have mentioned in previous posts that the locals don't even drink in the pubs in the town centre because they are so pricy.

I suspect that the local members of the S Hams council (who I understand nominate members to the Harbour Board) immediately bracket yachtsmen with the holiday home-owning people that are driving the waterfront side of the economy in Salcombe.

Perhaps its all down to that wider perception that boat owners are rich by definition, when the reality is that lots of people struggle to get by owning and running a boat on a fairly ordinary salary.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps its all down to that wider perception that boat owners are rich by definition, when the reality is that lots of people struggle to get by owning and running a boat on a fairly ordinary salary

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever the financial situation, I find it harder to justify large donations to greedy harbours or councils!

We are sailing pretty well every weekend from April to end October and most weekends will leave on Friday late afternoon and return on Sunday, so two nights away. If we were berthed in say Dartmouth and visiting Salcombe those two nights would cost us nearly £44 each weekend - for what? Currently we are based in Poole and 2 nights in say Lymington or Yarmouth (in the 'expensive' Solent) would cost us £32 by comparison. Now both those places have good pubs and restaurants, Lymington has a Saturday market and supermarkets and even Yarmouth has affordable provisions. Both places have water taxis but it is stilll possible to use oar power anyway. Why does Salcombe think they are worth another £12 per weekend from us?

Our main cruises these days are usually a one week one May/June to France and Channel Islands and a five week one to Southern Brittany. We pay less per night in Cherbourg in a marina berth with free electrics than we would pay to be rafted in Salcombe in the Bag, even without the additional water taxi costs to get ashore. St Peter Port put their rates up for us from £18 to £24/night and we have to stay (draught) on the outside pontoons, not walk-ashore and no electrics and probably rafting, the water taxi is expensive and unreliable. As a result nowadays we either spend just one night there, or preferably anchor free in Havelet Bay, previously however we would stay several nights. So we now spend much less in St Peter Port shops and restaurants than we used to so they lose out as well as the harbour people.

On our main summer South Brittany cruise, if we paid Salcombe rates every night it would cost around £750!! As it is our last year's bill for the entire trip was just £135, mainly because we anchor lots of the time and even the expensive French marinas are affordable, ranging from around £12 to £25 and free electrics. The French recognise that visiting yachts are good for local businesses, not just good for making a fast eurobuck.

My point is that these days I don't just look at things on a one night basis anymore but on the overall cost for the weekend or for a month of weekends, and for the overall cost of a holiday cruise. Salcombes rates are off the wall for what little they offer and viewed by my 'overall cost' method are seen for the extreme they are! There is also the knife edge factor, because I don't cringe at spending a few nights in Dartmouth weatherbound but I would be spitting nails in Salcombe!

I know you are but the messenger John but hopefully the comments from people on here will be seen by the Salcombe decision makers, whilst there is still time.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
I know you are but the messenger John but hopefully the comments from people on here will be seen by the Salcombe decision makers, whilst there is still time.



[/ QUOTE ] Robin, You won't be suprised that I have e-mailed a link to this thread to the Salcombe HM. Perhaps it will give him some more ammunition when he has to make a case to the Harbour Trustees? I know that he is keen to promote the harbour and get people visiting again, but costs have to be taken into account. Neither am I pleading poverty and I admit we have a respectible but not enormous income. Notwithstanding that I still get hacked off with the press (and public and politicians) image of sailing being an elitist wealthy person's game and perhaps I was just exercising that particular bee in my bonnet.

 

[Robin]

Well there are rich yotties but there are many more like us that just chose different priorities over the years from buying bigger houses, foreign holidays and mundane things like repairing the house! Yes we now have a reasonable income, at least until I give up work in a year or so, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to give an excessive amount away to Dick Turpin in a launch holding out his hand.

When we plan our annual cruise, I do the rough plan on a spreadsheet so I can see the probable timings at least from departure to getting down south through the Raz. The middle bit of the spreadsheet is empty then the end is filled in working backwards from when I have to be back at work. The other feature in that spreadsheet plan is that the probable cost of each night is listed, based on the previous year's charges at those places. So you can see that mooring fees are considered and will therefore form part of the decision process along the route, if only to give advanced warning of where not to dally too long. You can see why we like to spend a lot of time anchored off Houat, apart from it being my favourite place!

 

[Oceanmaster]

Write to and Email these for the reasons behind the pricing policy. Note all members of the Salcombe harbour board. Love to hear what they say.

I sail from Dartmouth to Salcombe because the kids love the sand They are only dead little. No quite the little brainless ( I own the world) 14 year olds screaming around in daddies 50 knot power boats in the harbour entrance YET!.
PS I haven't gone there for a couple of years too pricey for nothing.

Councillor Details

Cllr J Brazil
Address:
Crab Cottage
East Prawle

KINGSBRIDGE
TQ7 2DA Ward
Saltstone
Parish(s)
Charleton
Chivelstone
East Portlemouth
Frogmore and Sherford
South Pool

Tel Home 01548 511109 Council BodiesCommunity Policy Development Group Member
Council Member
Development Control Committee Member
Salcombe Harbour Board Chairman


Business
Mobile 07970 971140
Fax
E.Mail julian.brazil@devon.gov.uk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cllr J H Baverstock
Address
The Orchard
Butt Park

STOKENHAM
TQ7 2SH Ward
Stokenham
Parish(s)
Stokenham


Tel Home 01548 580041 Council BodiesCouncil Member
Licencing Committee Chairman
Salcombe Harbour Board Member
Scrutiny Member


Business
Mobile 07968 264072
Fax
E.Mail bavers@eggconnect.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cllr M J Hicks
Address
Home Farm
Moreleigh

TOTNES
TQ9 7JN Ward
Dartington
Parish(s)
Dartington


Tel Home 01548 821129 Council BodiesCouncil Member
Development Control Committee Member
Environment Policy Development Group Vice Chairman
Salcombe Harbour Board Member


Business
Mobile 07515 487766
Fax
E.Mail councillor.m.hicks@googlemail.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cllr R D Gilbert
Address
Washbrook Farm
Dodbrooke

KINGSBRIDGE
TQ7 1NN Ward
Kingsbridge North
Parish(s)
Kingsbridge

Tel Home 01548 856659 Council BodiesCouncil Member
Salcombe Harbour Board Member
Scrutiny Member


Business
Mobile
Fax
E.Mail rufus@gilbert90.eclipse.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Gwylan]

My experience has been trouble finding any of the harbour staff. Arriving one busy summer night the HM was nowhere to be found. Certainly not answering his VHF.
Eventually had us rafted up 6 to a mooring - suppose he could have sent us away. Collected full wack from each of us though.

Later very early in the season and on a foul night again no one was to be found or heard. We took a mooring and awaited developments.

And £1,80 a metre is a criminal charge, especially when you have become accustomed to continental prices, service and facilities.

 

[Wino]

Stopped there last Easter on way to Channel Isles. - £27.00 - for what? No water or electric and then expected to have other boats raft up alongside. Then the water taxi finished around 6.00.pm we were OK but friends had one hell of a job tryingto get back to their boat. Stay 3 nights for a free one? Who are they trying to amuse? What would the place be without boats? They are what all the tourists come to look at.

 

[Chris_Robb]

John - last time we were there at the end of July, looking ashore at 11pm, most of the place was in darkness. Just shows that most of the holiday homes are not even rented out. The guys who come for their 2 weeks and some weekends, contribute sweet FA to the town. In fact they will be the death of it. I am not sure what the local authority can do to change it. Market forces are impossible to alter.