Sailing Yacht brand ranking

dancrane said:
Surely, gentlemen, this last remark in the OP's initial question says far more about his priorities, than any casual interest in brand-one-upmanship, or actual build quality, or styling. If there were more pilot-house yachts, he probably wouldn't even be considering an open-cockpit boat.

It's a fair question too. Few boats with sails are designed to make their users comfortable, in cold and rough weather...we're just meant to dress accordingly instead.

Big compromises in performance seem inevitable if you want the option to steer from indoors. Not good, considering how few days per year are ideal for sitting outside at 50° north.

I adore sailing and would always rather go slow under canvas, than make useful progress under engine. But...for most of the average UK summer (let alone the rest of the year), if I bought even a slightly performance-orientated sailing yacht, I know I'd continuously be envying chaps whose choice of boat lets them steer from inside a raised deckhouse or old-fashioned full-height wheelhouse, however poorly that boat points to windward.

My mate spent six times as much money on his motorbike, as he paid for his car. He's crazy about bikes, rides everywhere on his...but in crappy weather he always drives the car, in his shirtsleeves, with the heater on. Because he can.

Plus, I've noticed an amazing number of open-cockpit yachts buzzing along for many miles under power when there was ample, favourable wind for sailing. It seems that our instinct is to own a boat which looks purposefully pure as a sailing machine, in spite of our default dependance on engine much of the time.

I reckon the OP here should attempt to calculate honestly what his distance sailed per year will probably be, and how many days aboard he'll spend. If he's determined to go long distances under sail in limited time, he must seek something sleek with a powerful rig, leaving aside plenty of cash for his own and his crew's foul-weather clothing...

...alternatively, if he wants what most people actually use their boats for (going a few miles, anchoring or berthing, then socialising on board, frequently downstairs because of the weather), before scurrying home under power against the tide because of work next day...what could be more suitable than a motor-sailer, with its option to sit, dine and steer the boat with excellent views of the scene outside, whilst keeping warm indoors?

Not to mention the extension of the sailing season, which an indoor-steering position permits. If you can steer while leaving that cutting cold wind outside, there are plenty of winter days when it'd be nice to go for a sail. And the more months per year the boat stays in the water and is used, the better value it becomes.

Okay, I know I'm trying to drive a river uphill using a broom...the majority of yacht-owners buy open-cockpit designs and refuse to acknowledge their inherent comfort-limitation...

...but if the OP is so fresh to sailing, he deserves to be told the truth that no-one admits!
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Well said. I hope the OP takes note. An excellent & thought provoking post, if I may say so.
 
doris said:
Island Packet is now a hobby business building a handful of boats per year at best. Not even the yanks buy them any more. For what it's worth,
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Not true-the yard completed at least six boats last year and has kept the skilled workforce busy re-furbishing older models.

They have also reached an agreement to build a high quality fin and spade yacht in partnership with another designer. IIRC five have been delivered.

They are not building in the quantities they once did, but the boats completed are bigger and of a higher unit price.

They would be delighted to take your order, should you wish to place one..............................
 
dancrane said:
Okay, I know I'm trying to drive a river uphill using a broom...the majority of yacht-owners buy open-cockpit designs and refuse to acknowledge their inherent comfort-limitation...
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That is just not true! Wheelhouse cruisers have been available for years - just about all builders have offered them in some form or other at one time or another, but they just don't sell! You can put forward all sorts of rational arguments that they are more suited to the way people use their boats, but clearly those actually spending their own money don't follow the arguments.
 
rotrax said:
Not true-the yard completed at least six boats last year and has kept the skilled workforce busy re-furbishing older models.

They have also reached an agreement to build a high quality fin and spade yacht in partnership with another designer. IIRC five have been delivered.

They are not building in the quantities they once did, but the boats completed are bigger and of a higher unit price.

They would be delighted to take your order, should you wish to place one..............................
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You have just confirmed doris's point. The concept has had its day. Good luck to them if they can configure the business to be profitable on 5 boats a year. The refurbishment business will likely eventually dry up as the boats fall in value to the point where they don't justify a professional refit. Sure they would be delighted to receive orders, but seems not many people willing to do that.
 
Tranona said:
Wheelhouse cruisers have been available for years...but they just don't sell! You can put forward all sorts of rational arguments that they are more suited to the way people use their boats, but clearly those actually spending their own money don't follow the arguments.
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Exactly the point, thank you Mr T. Nobody buys a boat because they need one, so emotional pressure to own one, over-rides logic regarding the style which suits the buyer's use.

I don't question your sense and experience, regarding the marketing and economics behind the boat-building industry...but as long as we mainly buy yachts which we can only infrequently enjoy, jokes about standing under a cold shower tearing up tenners, will persist for good reason. The OP here must decide what aspect of boat ownership he wants to buy into - performance and the fine points of sailing (at cost to all-season comfort), or less good sailing characteristics, aboard a boat that he and his friends and family will adore.

Sandyman said:
An excellent & thought provoking post, if I may say so.
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You're very kind, sir. :) I don't have my own yacht, yet...but I spend some of every waking hour, mulling-over the virtues and downsides of the many boats I'd one day like to sail...

...and as yet I'm still not certain of any single answer as to which is definitively best. All I feel certain of, is that an extraordinary number of yachts are designed with outwardly appealing features which nevertheless severely reduce their practicality, usability and versatility, thus representing dubious overall value - at least in shallow, chilly UK waters.

Nobody sails because it makes economic sense to do so...but buying a deep-fin-keeled, open-cockpit sailing yacht seems like taking a really money-hungry, temperamental mistress...

...she looks terrific, but you can't take her anywhere, and all she does is make you worry and spend cash! So you need to be very sure you can't resist her charms before buying.
 
doris said:
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Having had reasonable ammount of experience of a lot of these Marques I disagree with most of this ranking.

Swans; Grotesquely over engineered and mind numbingly unreliable
Najads; seem to have the biggest snagging lists in Christendom when new. Tends to continue.
HR; hull/rudder/keel rig design is now the same as any other quicker cruiser, no longer a genuine blue water boat.
Oyster; all seem v shabby very quickly, and I looked a fair few.
X yachts/Waquiez/Maxi; just premium awbs and nowhere near worth the big premium. Sail well though.
Sigma; brilliant designs but built to aprice not a standard. I should know I have had three.
All of no4; Misty eyed traditionalists living in the past and thinking how good their MGs were.
I could go on but the OP really needs to go and sail lots of them and look at their maintenance schedules, wear and tear, etc then make his own mind up. Just about every forumite will have a different view.
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Good post and better than

You should look at [insert - whatever boat poster has or yearns for!] you can get one for [insert price for one 10yrs older than OP requested and in much need of TLC]

My only advice is sort out what you can afford having allowed for an amount of repairs. It saves a lot of wasted time and dissappointment.

If considering a production boat look at ones that have been on Charter as they get a harder life. You will then see the build quilty wrt actuial use and not false perceptions. I was put off Elans and Hanse (yr 2000-2004 period) due to lack of robustness on charter market. Boats develop and possibly a modern Hanse is as good as any other production boat. It may be a surprise to many to learn that Bavarias last well (only chartered them never owned one!).

To me there are two types of production boats

Ones that need an inner and outer hull glued together for strength eg New ones now.

Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse, Dufour, Elan, Bavaria

and ones that have inner beams ribs or frame bonded to hull either in GRP or steel,

X boats, Arcona and may of the makes listed above when built but now older boats.

I have a Jeanneau of 2005 vintage built with an internal structural frame that I intend to renovate to be like new. Possibly not economic nor sensible but the compromises on this boat suit me & the boss probably not suit others that why this question is difficult to answer but good for discussion.
 
photodog said:
You can't helm a sailing yacht from indoors. Electronics can't replace the feel of the wind.

The idea of a pilot house sailing yacht is a oxymoron.
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Doug, I'm bound to counter that!

True we helm our Nauticat 95% from the outside, cockpit, helm - it is a mechanical rudder connection and gives "feel" on the wheel as well as the wind our cheek. But we can choose to go down below when its just too cold and still keep sailing. Generally we don't steer from down below (hydraulic steering, no feedback) so we stick the autopilot on and keep watch from down below. We can can see the sail trim from within the pilot house - hatches cleverly positioned by Nauticat. So its about choices. Interestingly we sailed to Fowey in November and there were just two visitor boats there - a Vancouver pilot house and our Nauticat!
 
So, you do a bit of sailing, and then retire below for g and t's whilst you are conveyed... But whilst down below you may as well be on a very environmentally friendly, though slow, train.

But I hardly think yours is a proper pilot house... For that you need a big bushy beard.
 
yacht said:
:) nice comment, but true!
I'm thinking if I buy, 5-10yr old, the major price drop has occurred and the boat is keeping its value for a couple of years and will require little repairs and maintenance. What I don't want to end up with is a endless pit that just requires loads of work all the time, that will be for later in life once I have more time on my hands..
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This logic would apply well to buying a car, but a cruising sailboat is a very different proposition.

A cruising sailboat is not an appliance like a car, which you drive off the dealer's lot and drive for five or six years without doing much but putting in petrol and oil, then sell on when it starts to look a bit tired and the first things start to go wrong. A cruising sailboat is more like a house -- a very complex house, or maybe an office building. It is a collection of different systems, each with its own usable life measured in years or hours of use or both, each with its own predeliction to failure or problems. Unlike the case with a car, a yacht is almost never delivered with everything working perfectly -- snagging and incremental improvements go on for up to a year. If you're lucky, you've got it just about right after a year, but by that time depreciation starts to set in, and the snagging list morphs smoothly into the "to fix or upgrade" list, which every yacht has.

So you should not expect "little repairs or maintenance"; a cruising sailboat is a very maintenance-intensive device, like a very complex house. 8 to 10 years is actually just about the worst age, because a number of major systems can just about last that long but are nearing the ends of their useful lives -- don't ask me how I know this! :) The best age is a year old, or maybe two, or on the other hand, more than 10 years but after a major refit (the cost of which is never recovered by the owner) or bought from an owner who always stayed on top of maintenance, repairs, and replacements. To say it another way -- a 15 year old boat just after a really good refit is generally going to be a much better value proposition than an 8 year old boat whose major systems are mostly still original. I would pay more, actually, but in reality, the price is usually less.

Most yachts have extensive tool kits on board with a full set of power tools; it's not uncommon to find bench vices and drill presses on board, plus large inventories of spares and materials. You would not find such on a car! That's because there's always something to fix, and there is always a list of things to do which you never reach the bottom of (you will learn that you do well to merely keep it from getting longer -- eliminating items as fast as new ones appear). "Refit" is what happens when the list gradually becomes untenable and you just want to make a big push to reset it. Then, after your refit, you end up with a snagging list, and the whole process starts over again :)

I'm just saying this to prepare you for yacht ownership to NOT be like car ownership. You don't have to do it all yourself, but you do need to be ready to fix the odd problem, especially at sea where you can't just call in an engineer. And you do need to be prepared to spend a fair amount of money every year keeping The List under control.

And when you choose a boat, you should be trying to understand where in their useful lives are all the main systems. This is the main thing to concentrate on, not age or mileage like with a car. A boat's hull will last practically forever, but the hull is just the thing to which all the thousands of other bits are mounted, bits which wear out and have to be repaired and replaced constantly.

Good luck!
 
Dockhead said:
This logic would apply well to buying a car, but a cruising sailboat is a very different proposition.

A cruising sailboat is not an appliance like a car, which you drive off the dealer's lot and drive for five or six years without doing much but putting in petrol and oil, then sell on when it starts to look a bit tired and the first things start to go wrong. A cruising sailboat is more like a house -- a very complex house, or maybe an office building. It is a collection of different systems, each with its own usable life measured in years or hours of use or both, each with its own predeliction to failure or problems. Unlike the case with a car, a yacht is almost never delivered with everything working perfectly -- snagging and incremental improvements go on for up to a year. If you're lucky, you've got it just about right after a year, but by that time depreciation starts to set in, and the snagging list morphs smoothly into the "to fix or upgrade" list, which every yacht has.

So you should not expect "little repairs or maintenance"; a cruising sailboat is a very maintenance-intensive device, like a very complex house. 8 to 10 years is actually just about the worst age, because a number of major systems can just about last that long but are nearing the ends of their useful lives -- don't ask me how I know this! :) The best age is a year old, or maybe two, or on the other hand, more than 10 years but after a major refit (the cost of which is never recovered by the owner) or bought from an owner who always stayed on top of maintenance, repairs, and replacements. To say it another way -- a 15 year old boat just after a really good refit is generally going to be a much better value proposition than an 8 year old boat whose major systems are mostly still original. I would pay more, actually, but in reality, the price is usually less.

Most yachts have extensive tool kits on board with a full set of power tools; it's not uncommon to find bench vices and drill presses on board, plus large inventories of spares and materials. You would not find such on a car! That's because there's always something to fix, and there is always a list of things to do which you never reach the bottom of (you will learn that you do well to merely keep it from getting longer -- eliminating items as fast as new ones appear). "Refit" is what happens when the list gradually becomes untenable and you just want to make a big push to reset it. Then, after your refit, you end up with a snagging list, and the whole process starts over again :)

I'm just saying this to prepare you for yacht ownership to NOT be like car ownership. You don't have to do it all yourself, but you do need to be ready to fix the odd problem, especially at sea where you can't just call in an engineer. And you do need to be prepared to spend a fair amount of money every year keeping The List under control.

And when you choose a boat, you should be trying to understand where in their useful lives are all the main systems. This is the main thing to concentrate on, not age or mileage like with a car. A boat's hull will last practically forever, but the hull is just the thing to which all the thousands of other bits are mounted, bits which wear out and have to be repaired and replaced constantly.

Good luck!
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Or you could buy a bavaria.....
 
dancrane said:
Exactly the point, thank you Mr T. Nobody buys a boat because they need one, so emotional pressure to own one, over-rides logic regarding the style which suits the buyer's use.
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But with that argument you just go round in circles. The point is that however illogical it may seem to you people DO buy open cockpit boats and DON'T buy wheelhouse boats (in any numbers).

BTW I am not anti wheelhouse boats, just that the only ones I like are well out of my price range and probably too big for my needs.
 
Just_sayin' said:
That's funny :)
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It is still a multi-million Dollar business though-some hobby.........................................

The yard planned its strategy to get through the recession.

It appears to be working.

They have retained the highly skilled workers, are building to order-as most quality builders do-and are building another design to the same quality standards.

When our boat was new in 1999 it was fully CE compliant and came with a ten year no strings osmosis factory warranty.

I wonder how many boats Swan sold new last year-anyone know?
 
Tranona said:
But with that argument you just go round in circles. The point is that however illogical it may seem, people DO buy open cockpit boats and DON'T buy wheelhouse boats (in any numbers).
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Agreed - agreed they do, and I hope you'll agree, there's something a trifle illogical about it...

...we only buy boats for pleasure (or whatever tough, ascetic, manly sense of reward we believe we extract from a hundred miles of steering upwind in a cold force 5)...

...and most people's choice of yacht (fin-keel, open cockpit, low coachroof) can perform like the setting for a Caribbean-cocktail advertisement, on a nice bright summer's day...

...and that thought sells the product. A blissful dream. But...take away the bronzed models and chunks of pineapple and the high bright sun, and where are those same buyers?

Usually paying top-dollar for premium deep-water berths because the deep-fin prohibits access to drying moorings and countless charming shallow bays, harbours and tidal rivers, and meanwhile, guests who are persuaded to come aboard by thoughts of sunny on-deck frolicking, find that in fact there's nowhere comfortable, once on passage - they either cower nauseously in the heads, or emerge to face cold wind and spray on deck. There's nowhere in-between, that's the trouble.

I reckon most UK yacht-buyers know their purchase was designed with more agreeable weather and deeper harbours in mind than they typically encounter in the English Channel...

...and look at the price of motor-sailers! I expect most buyers find themselves spending close to the maximum they felt they could afford on their yachts - so, would sir prefer a 30ft boat with a large engine and an all-weather centrally-heated steering position, or a 36ft open-cockpit boat, sleeker, much faster, roomier, for the same money? Hardly surprising the bigger (but relatively affordable) boats outsell the ones that were adroitly designed to protect their crews from nasty weather...

...but the fact that boat buyers are naturally greedy for the greatest space & performance their money will buy, doesn't mean cheaper designs are best suited to their actual use.
 
Ah! Fair enough. In fact, your fears would almost certainly be proven right...

...but surely the other edge of that axe is that the bigger, faster boat is likely to be dramatically less pleasant to spend time aboard even when sailing, during typical UK weather?

Hence once again...does the purity of the sailing experience (at its occasional best) take all precedence over virtually-guaranteed comfort, even in the typical British low-season?

I love my Osprey's fine sailing ability, but if I were splashing out on a cabin-boat to spend extended periods aboard, performance would drop far down my list of priorities...

...I'd advise the OP to judge his ideal boat in terms of how determined he is to have the purest sailing experience, versus how comfortable he wants himself and his crew to feel.

Has the OP gone, I wonder? He was definitely a 'new fish', and might have asked his interesting but potentially divisive question, just for the dubious fun of reading the squabbles. :suspicion:
 
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