Sailing Yacht brand ranking

[geem]

What determines quality?
How about reorganising the list to put the one you would choose if you had to go through a F10.which would be the last boat you would want to be in F10 in?
Wonder if it changes the order?

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Having had reasonable ammount of experience of a lot of these Marques I disagree with most of this ranking.

Swans; Grotesquely over engineered and mind numbingly unreliable
Najads; seem to have the biggest snagging lists in Christendom when new. Tends to continue.
HR; hull/rudder/keel rig design is now the same as any other quicker cruiser, no longer a genuine blue water boat.
Oyster; all seem v shabby very quickly, and I looked a fair few.
X yachts/Waquiez/Maxi; just premium awbs and nowhere near worth the big premium. Sail well though.
Sigma; brilliant designs but built to aprice not a standard. I should know I have had three.
All of no4; Misty eyed traditionalists living in the past and thinking how good their MGs were.
I could go on but the OP really needs to go and sail lots of them and look at their maintenance schedules, wear and tear, etc then make his own mind up. Just about every forumite will have a different view.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

What determines quality?
How about reorganising the list to put the one you would choose if you had to go through a F10.which would be the last boat you would want to be in F10 in?
Wonder if it changes the order?

Depends on the type of sailing he is planning to do - if he is never likely to go through an F10 then it is totally irrelevant.

 

[geem]

Depends on the type of sailing he is planning to do - if he is never likely to go through an F10 then it is totally irrelevant.

Correct. The point I was making is what defines quality? Quality of design, hull material, fittings, etc. they all vary in quality. I think the order of quality in the list doesn't change much when considering the F10. I would choose the same order for the F10 scenario. If the OP isn't going in a F10 then the list is irrelevant. He Just needs to choose on the basis of what he fancies and can he sell easily when he is finished with it.

 

[Resolution]

What determines quality?
How about reorganising the list to put the one you would choose if you had to go through a F10.which would be the last boat you would want to be in F10 in?
Wonder if it changes the order?

Suitability for a F10 is way out at the end of the scale of just one factor to be considered. In forty years of sailing and boat ownership I have managed to avoid being out in anything like a F10. On the other hand I have spent many many hours in mid strength weather, and quite a large number of hours motoring either because there was very little wind, or because it was on the nose. So to me, sailing quality is
A) ability to make good speed in light to mid range weather
B) ability to point well
C) ability to cope up to F8 without drama
D) ability to manoeuvre forward and back in marinas.

Pretty much in that order.

Then you get onto the caravan comfort factors...............

 

[yacht]

Thanks!
I appreciate the comments, great to hear differing views!
Looking fwd to hear about any real life ownership experiences with Hanse 400 and other similar yachts

Sorted by newest first | Sort by oldest first


Having had reasonable ammount of experience of a lot of these Marques I disagree with most of this ranking.

Swans; Grotesquely over engineered and mind numbingly unreliable
Najads; seem to have the biggest snagging lists in Christendom when new. Tends to continue.
HR; hull/rudder/keel rig design is now the same as any other quicker cruiser, no longer a genuine blue water boat.
Oyster; all seem v shabby very quickly, and I looked a fair few.
X yachts/Waquiez/Maxi; just premium awbs and nowhere near worth the big premium. Sail well though.
Sigma; brilliant designs but built to aprice not a standard. I should know I have had three.
All of no4; Misty eyed traditionalists living in the past and thinking how good their MGs were.
I could go on but the OP really needs to go and sail lots of them and look at their maintenance schedules, wear and tear, etc then make his own mind up. Just about every forumite will have a different view.

 

[Seven Spades]

Right here is what you need to do.... Forget your 10 year rule. You can find a very sound boat exactly what you are looking for but it will be much more than 10 years old. That does not matter, we bought a 10 year old boat 8 years ago and I think the boat is in better condition today than when we bought it. It is not the age of the boat that is important it is the condition. I have seen boats that are nearly 20 years old that look like new, they do exist and you can afford them.

With your budget you could look at a GS or an x-40 (Danish)

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2004/Grand-Soleil-40-1433088/Croatia#.UxUIxdwwlvB

 

[rotrax]

Last year we had the Haslar Sealift team antifoul and polish our hull-and very pleased we were too!

When we came to collect the guy in charge of the polishing took First Mate to a point mid way along the hull and pointed out an area that he was a bit upset about.

It was approx. 18 inches wide and 24 inches deep. Looked like a bit of fender rub. First mate told him not to worry too much-after all she was a 1999 Island Packet that had spent the first 9 years of its life under Florida's hot sun.

The guy was amazed-he said he thought she was a three year old boat. He said that as boat polishing was his job, he had never seen a craft of that age with such a good finish for its age.

That, amongst other things, like the exquisite woodwork, the high quality fittings, the bronze through hull's, the over spec. rigging, the huge amount of storage, the huge fridge/freezer-the list goes on-is why we like her.

There was an Island Packet 350 on offer in France recently at the OP's price.

The Americans do it differently, but well over 3,000 island packets have been built and sold, so they must have it somewhere near what their market requires.

He could do worse.

 

[Tranona]

Right here is what you need to do.... Forget your 10 year rule. You can find a very sound boat exactly what you are looking for but it will be much more than 10 years old. That does not matter, we bought a 10 year old boat 8 years ago and I think the boat is in better condition today than when we bought it. It is not the age of the boat that is important it is the condition. I have seen boats that are nearly 20 years old that look like new, they do exist and you can afford them.

With your budget you could look at a GS or an x-40 (Danish)

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2004/Grand-Soleil-40-1433088/Croatia#.UxUIxdwwlvB

Not sure why you are suggesting a boat that is 25% over budget - and in another part of the world!

 

[Tempus]

An Island Packet is a great boat, but almost the opposite in boating terms to a Hanse 400 which the OP now seems set on. Hanse is lightweight, high freeboard, quick in light airs, great in harbour, but I for one wouldn't love being out in a storm with kids in it. I'd be happy in a storm in an IP but the sailing performance would frustrate me.

Seems to prove the point made many times in this thread, with no clear criteria there will be as many "right" answers as we there are boat Marques, after all each one has been selected as "right" by its own particular owner.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Unless I was trying to impress certain members of the Royal Yacht Squadron or suchlike I'd buy what I liked best at the budget I had. Never in my life considered boats as brands in the same way as cars which seems to be the way OP thinks.

I see the OP currently has a motorboat, and occasional visits to that forums suggest that motorboaters are a pretty brand-oriented bunch, so perhaps there is a cultural mismatch going on.

 

[doris]

Last year we had the Haslar Sealift team antifoul and polish our hull-and very pleased we were too!

When we came to collect the guy in charge of the polishing took First Mate to a point mid way along the hull and pointed out an area that he was a bit upset about.

It was approx. 18 inches wide and 24 inches deep. Looked like a bit of fender rub. First mate told him not to worry too much-after all she was a 1999 Island Packet that had spent the first 9 years of its life under Florida's hot sun.

The guy was amazed-he said he thought she was a three year old boat. He said that as boat polishing was his job, he had never seen a craft of that age with such a good finish for its age.

That, amongst other things, like the exquisite woodwork, the high quality fittings, the bronze through hull's, the over spec. rigging, the huge amount of storage, the huge fridge/freezer-the list goes on-is why we like her.

There was an Island Packet 350 on offer in France recently at the OP's price.

The Americans do it differently, but well over 3,000 island packets have been built and sold, so they must have it somewhere near what their market requires.

He could do worse.

Island Packet is now a hobby business building a handful of boats per year at best. Not even the yanks buy them any more. For what it's worth,

 

[boatman2014]

Hanse yachts are in my opinion only modern displayment yachts that are spacious enough, stiff light and safe enough for the price with children. We've got 3 children aged 2, 4 and 6 and have tried most yachts through chartering before settling on the Hanse brand. There is a company in the Solent called Sailing GB that charter Hanse yachts and cater for children with small lifejackets and safety netting, they based in Port Hamble - we use them for channel islands trip and recommend.

 

[jwilson]

Thanks. I've owned some motor boats and currently own a Fairline Targa 34' a bit small that's why I want 40ft and prefer sailing as used to sail as a kid on a Nauticat 44.. My wife is finally convinced sailing is not as boring as it looks to her so now is a good time to move into sailing

Been on a few Beneteaus don't like em, cheap feel. Did my Day Skipper tidal on a Bene 41, the Hanses I've seen seem nicer.
The thing with these older premium boats is that I currently work 11hour days in Finance in the City so won't have time fixing and repairing stuff

An unpopular opinion, but like any manufactured product a newish Bavaria, Jeanneau or Beneteau probably needs less regular fixing than many structurally and joinery-wise better built but older boats, just as a newish Ford Focus is going to need far less fixing than an older Ferrari. Bavarias in particular stand up to charter use very well - and charter companies want boats that work as much as possible.

 

[boatman2014]

I'm also in finance in the city - we are in the same boat so to speak!!! Yes and no on the new yachts purchase, it's a different kind of work on a new yacht, think of like getting in a new system in the bank, it's only 80% matching your requirements at best 20% needs bespoking to be useful. An older yacht has already had the bespoking down and all the things that have gone wrong worked through and hopefully modified with solutions that prevent happening again. Saying that I wouldn't go for a 20 year old yacht becasue the technology has moved along since then. I still think you best try a Hanse yacht for family & price, they higher quality than Bavaria and Benetue due to vacume packed construction and cheaper than Oysters and Swans. Speak to Darren at www.sailingGB.co.uk yacht charter company in the solent they don't charge for the kids on the family charters and I think you can get on a nice spec'd up Hanse for £200 per adult money well spent when deciding on what yachts you like - invaluable realy.

 

[dom]

What determines quality?
How about reorganising the list to put the one you would choose if you had to go through a F10.which would be the last boat you would want to be in F10 in?
Wonder if it changes the order?

Here's a post relating to a race where the wind blew to 68kts. All manner of boats took a pasting, but an AWB Bene was in front when the race was abandoned, the same boat that won a notable race across the Bass Straits in even worse weather! Here's an extract and a link to SA discussion on this race:

"There is going to be all kinds of second guessing about this race(see the SA thread here) and everyone who opines will be convinced they’re right. ...interestingly, boats didn’t break during this – all the carnage was to gear, some of which was undersized for the conditions, some of which wasn’t maintained and some of which was just used incompetently by the operators."

http://sailinganarchy.com/2010/04/05/15757/

 

[KellysEye]

Bowman, Vancouver, Rival spring to mind, all solidly built.

 

[Greenheart]

I also like pilot houses but that's not a must, as only a few brands offer pilot houses on their boats, why is that? Who likes sailing outside in 5 degrees rain?

Surely, gentlemen, this last remark in the OP's initial question says far more about his priorities, than any casual interest in brand-one-upmanship, or actual build quality, or styling. If there were more pilot-house yachts, he probably wouldn't even be considering an open-cockpit boat.

It's a fair question too. Few boats with sails are designed to make their users comfortable, in cold and rough weather...we're just meant to dress accordingly instead.

Big compromises in performance seem inevitable if you want the option to steer from indoors. Not good, considering how few days per year are ideal for sitting outside at 50° north.

I adore sailing and would always rather go slow under canvas, than make useful progress under engine. But...for most of the average UK summer (let alone the rest of the year), if I bought even a slightly performance-orientated sailing yacht, I know I'd continuously be envying chaps whose choice of boat lets them steer from inside a raised deckhouse or old-fashioned full-height wheelhouse, however poorly that boat points to windward.

My mate spent six times as much money on his motorbike, as he paid for his car. He's crazy about bikes, rides everywhere on his...but in crappy weather he always drives the car, in his shirtsleeves, with the heater on. Because he can.

Plus, I've noticed an amazing number of open-cockpit yachts buzzing along for many miles under power when there was ample, favourable wind for sailing. It seems that our instinct is to own a boat which looks purposefully pure as a sailing machine, in spite of our default dependance on engine much of the time.

I reckon the OP here should attempt to calculate honestly what his distance sailed per year will probably be, and how many days aboard he'll spend. If he's determined to go long distances under sail in limited time, he must seek something sleek with a powerful rig, leaving aside plenty of cash for his own and his crew's foul-weather clothing...

...alternatively, if he wants what most people actually use their boats for (going a few miles, anchoring or berthing, then socialising on board, frequently downstairs because of the weather), before scurrying home under power against the tide because of work next day...what could be more suitable than a motor-sailer, with its option to sit, dine and steer the boat with excellent views of the scene outside, whilst keeping warm indoors?

Not to mention the extension of the sailing season, which an indoor-steering position permits. If you can steer while leaving that cutting cold wind outside, there are plenty of winter days when it'd be nice to go for a sail. And the more months per year the boat stays in the water and is used, the better value it becomes.

Okay, I know I'm trying to drive a river uphill using a broom...the majority of yacht-owners buy open-cockpit designs and refuse to acknowledge their inherent comfort-limitation...

...but if the OP is so fresh to sailing, he deserves to be told the truth that no-one admits!

 

[photodog]

You can't helm a sailing yacht from indoors. Electronics can't replace the feel of the wind.

The idea of a pilot house sailing yacht is a oxymoron.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You can't helm a sailing yacht from indoors. Electronics can't replace the feel of the wind.

See the two compass threads. It seems that loads of "sailors" never helm if they help it, don't care where they're going and trust the electronics to do it all. They might as well be warm and comfy as well.

As for quality ... stuff the brand. That's just badge engineering. For UK-built boats the ranking is (1) anything built by Northshore Mouldings (2) everything else.

 

[Greenheart]

You can't helm a sailing yacht from indoors. Electronics can't replace the feel of the wind.

I know, I'm a dinghy-sailor. I spent a day aboard a Westerly Konsort Duo, and wasn't impressed by her handling under sail, nor the weird feeling of separation at the inside helm...

...but out of ten hours aboard, on a cold damp day, the feeling of light in the raised saloon, and the freedom to continue under way with nobody outside, was extremely appealing.

It almost certainly isn't what any of us picture if we visualise a great day of sailing, but at this latitude, with 8 months of grotty weather per year, the ugly, ungainly Konsort Duo would suit most people's actual use, far better than the boats we end up with! Sorry, that's horrid, which I really didn't want to be. Dare any of us ask our SWMBO what she thinks?