sailing (withthe rags up) into a marina

[Seajet]

I used to know people at the excellent Solent Scool of Yachting, based at Warsash on the Hamble - this was recounted to me, by a person who's forgotten more about sailing than I'll ever know;

the school had a relatively young, keen instructor - one day there were a few of the instructors having lunch at Poole Town Quay when this chap appeared heading singlehanded in a Gib Sea 42 straight for the road bridge, downwind under full sail.

This naturally roused a gang of onlookers, most with fingers in their ears waiting for the crunch; the skipper just lashed the helm, went forward and kicked the bower anchor off the foredeck, whereupon the boat swang round head to wind with the sails shaking, enabling him to take them in and go alongside...

Nice move if the anchor holds !

 

[Grumpybear]

Have done it twice into Sutton Marina in Plymouth. First time was in a Leisure 23 after engine failure, the second time in our current SO36.2 after losing a prop blade. In both cases the wind was easterly F3-4 and the tide high enough for free flow, so no real problems apart from not having the option of going round again!

I would agree with an earlier poster that practice is essential, but in our case entering the Marina under sail is verboten except in emergency. in the end, experience is the best bet, probably gained in dinghies or small yachts.

 

[Poignard]

... apart from not having the option of going round again!

Like landing a glider - great incentive not to get it wrong!

 

[Grumpybear]

Probability of cockup is proportional to the square of the size of the audience.

saw it done one Saturday evening in La Trinite. An entire fleet of 25ish rooters returning from a day's racing with spinnakers up entered the downriver Marina and took their kites down as they entered their berths. impressive but terrifying to watch

 

[Searush]

Never sailed into a marina - I can't afford them. But I have sailed into Douglas inner harbour & Port Penrhyn.

In Douglas the wind was astern so I stowed the main & mizzen & controlled the speed by furling the genoa as required, turned into the wind berth alongside as needed.

For Port Penrhyn, I stowed the main & used the mizzen & part genoa to control my speed. Again it was easy enough to turn head to wind & kill speed, furling the genny as we came alongside our berth.

Often sail off moorings & anchor, & anchor under sail, but only occasionally moor under sail as currents can be strong & variable and controlling speed for single handed pick-up is difficult. Yes, I could use a patent pick-up device from the cockpit - but I don't have one & won't be buying one.

 

[VO5]

How did you "queue by putting her in irons"? With the head threatening to blow off and the sails flapping wildly. No bermudan boats I have sailed on, including ketches, have done this satisfactorily. Did she have a deep forefoot/did you trice up the sails in some fashion

No, very easy actually.
You roll in the Genoa.
You drop the topping lift to take the camber out of the mainsail.
Then you sheet the mainsail in tight, midships, rudder midships.
She will settle head to wind and just stop, just park herself there.

Then to get going, you just reverse the process.

 

[VO5]

More and more posts are saying how easy it is to sail to a berth under sail and suggest it is odd to think otherwise. This must be depressing to some readers surely? I think its very difficult and takes years and years of practice just to do it occasionally. In many situations it is impossible to achieve in our modern boats with modern rigs - we just do not have sufficient control in so many situations - which rules out close quarters manoeuvering. Also in modern times we do not have time to gain the necessary experience. So, continue motoring into our berths and only sailing in when we deem safe which is not as often as these posters infer.

"...there are many set ups that Hornblower himself would have taken one look at and sailed on by"

Tom Cunliffe (refering to berthing under sail) - Easy on the Helm (book - p.126)

Yes I agree.

But there again, many never try.
You want to try to try, if you understand what I mean.
Then when you do it a few times, the apprehension evaporates.

How many times do you see someone coming in to tie up under power and making a mess of the approach?

It would not occur to them to abort the idea, go round, and try again.

I think this is the deep message contained in the Hornblower quote you mention.

Everyone is in too much of a hurry nowadays is probably a contributary factor
to not trying to try. We are all of us spoilt by the expectation of instant results very likely.

 

[VO5]

You've just caused me to think, there are many manoevres rarely seen nowadays...

Luffing up to pick up a mooring...scandalising...springing off a berth with the wind on it...sailing backwards.... warping ....head to tailing, etc.,

 

[lenseman]

Sailing into a berth came with the territory when I started sailing in the RN.

Sea Scamp, at 41 foot, did not have an engine of any description in those days although one has now been retro-fitted.

 

[chrisedwards]

Yes I agree.

But there again, many never try.
You want to try to try, if you understand what I mean.
Then when you do it a few times, the apprehension evaporates.

How many times do you see someone coming in to tie up under power and making a mess of the approach?

It would not occur to them to abort the idea, go round, and try again.

I think this is the deep message contained in the Hornblower quote you mention.

Everyone is in too much of a hurry nowadays is probably a contributary factor
to not trying to try. We are all of us spoilt by the expectation of instant results very likely




.

I'm afraid this is not a fair situation for you - I have the book and Tom Cunliffe says that in the many situations where it is impossible to sail into a berth the sailor has no choice but to anchor and wait for wind and tide or go elswhere.

The nature of the berth is a variable - an earlier poster saying sailing into the berth was par for the course in the navy - yes in the navy berth but for so many of our marina berths it just is impossible in many situations. Did they always sail into the assigned berth in some foreign port - did the assigner/harbourmaster know they had no engine?

The nature of the boat is another variable - many posters are referring to tiny or very manoeuverable boats - 25' racing boats or Leisure 23's etc - a bigger boat requires more space to manoeuvre - simple as that - and this is not available in most marina berths today.
If I "queue by putting her in irons and rolling the headsail and bowsing in the main" as one poster does - the drag of the wind past both sides of my main rapidly gives me sternway and the person behind me honks his horn! (or the bow blows off still and I get admonished for pushing in.)

Finally - and this proves the point as far as I am concerned - the clash between "trying again" and "dowsing mainsail and coming in under foresail" - you are now out of total control and have one go only - or can you raise your mainsail in a narrow space - quick? Yes it will work - in some situations - in others - please see Tom Cunliffe and Hornblower - both far better sailors than me!

 

[DownWest]

There is a 40ft ex racing cat that day charters out of Vilamoura. Owned by a friend, he invited a bunch of us out for the day. The skipper decided to sail into his berth at the end of the day. We came past the fuel and customs still doing 10kts plus and pulled the sails down promptly on his signal, the berth was to port and he judged the long curve nicely to get the way off. But he does go out most days in the summer. Do it often? I asked. No he said, I wouldn't trust the punters to respond to my wishes in time.

A while back a retired couple (he 72, she 64) set off to the Canaries. On arriving at Grand Canaria, he was sick in his berth and the engine refused to start. She sailed right in and "Luckily there was a nice red bouy in clear water, so I rounded up and grabbed it. Got the sails down and waited for marina guys" This in a 46' heavy ketch. I later saw her(the boat) on the front of YM leaning up against a wall in S. America.

 

[chrisedwards]

No, very easy actually.
You roll in the Genoa.
You drop the topping lift to take the camber out of the mainsail.
Then you sheet the mainsail in tight, midships, rudder midships.
She will settle head to wind and just stop, just park herself there.

Then to get going, you just reverse the process.

This has never worked for me - on many types of boats.The boat rapidly gathers sternway (with the drag of the wind passing down both sides of the main) and/or head blows off with very non-queuing/parking consequences. As I asked before - I would be very interested in type of boat - heavy displacement/low flush decked deep forefoot I bet? - or high stern oriental design?

 

[sailor211]

In Horta I watched a neat bit of sailing in to the berth.

A traditional yacht sailled into the harbour under full sail, passing the customs house, a crew jumps into the dinghy at stern, and makes his way forward as the boat slowed whilst the wind dropped in the shaddow of the harbour.
As the yachs progressed to the berth, the sails were dropped, main followed by jib, part way through following manouver,

Dinghy man is by that time at bow, and quickley rows across to a pontoon opposite side of fairway to berth and jumps ashore, with bow line in hand. On instruction from skipper bowman snubs the bow, and stern swings around till it is inline with berth. Stern crew steps on to pontoon and walks the yacht back into the berth. Yacht tied up. Bow man rows back for beer.

So you can sail in and tie up stern to if you want. Not sure I want ot try it though

 

[VO5]

This has never worked for me - on many types of boats.The boat rapidly gathers sternway (with the drag of the wind passing down both sides of the main) and/or head blows off with very non-queuing/parking consequences. As I asked before - I would be very interested in type of boat - heavy displacement/low flush decked deep forefoot I bet? - or high stern oriental design?

Westerly Sealord 39, Roller Genoa, Slab Reefed Main, Centre Cockpit Sloop.

LOA 38'6"
Draught 5' 6"
Beam 13' 4"
Displacement 18, 500 lbs.
Keel Fin.

 

[VO5]

This has never worked for me - on many types of boats.The boat rapidly gathers sternway (with the drag of the wind passing down both sides of the main) and/or head blows off with very non-queuing/parking consequences. As I asked before - I would be very interested in type of boat - heavy displacement/low flush decked deep forefoot I bet? - or high stern oriental design?

....Because you probably did it in a strong breeze....

 

[VO5]

I'm afraid this is not a fair situation for you - I have the book and Tom Cunliffe says that in the many situations where it is impossible to sail into a berth the sailor has no choice but to anchor and wait for wind and tide or go elswhere.

The nature of the berth is a variable - an earlier poster saying sailing into the berth was par for the course in the navy - yes in the navy berth but for so many of our marina berths it just is impossible in many situations. Did they always sail into the assigned berth in some foreign port - did the assigner/harbourmaster know they had no engine?

The nature of the boat is another variable - many posters are referring to tiny or very manoeuverable boats - 25' racing boats or Leisure 23's etc - a bigger boat requires more space to manoeuvre - simple as that - and this is not available in most marina berths today.
If I "queue by putting her in irons and rolling the headsail and bowsing in the main" as one poster does - the drag of the wind past both sides of my main rapidly gives me sternway and the person behind me honks his horn! (or the bow blows off still and I get admonished for pushing in.)

Finally - and this proves the point as far as I am concerned - the clash between "trying again" and "dowsing mainsail and coming in under foresail" - you are now out of total control and have one go only - or can you raise your mainsail in a narrow space - quick? Yes it will work - in some situations - in others - please see Tom Cunliffe and Hornblower - both far better sailors than me!

I have Cunliffe's book right here on my shelf. Yes, of course, if you can't get in you have to go to an anchor.

You raise several points as a cluster of comments.

Dilemmas, dilemmas and more dilemmas.

Navy Berths, yes. But where is the navy today ? When I was a lad this harbour was humming day and night , ship's whistles, clanking chains, rivetting...all gone.

The tide has turned towards privatisation. And with privatisation come the marinas. And the marinas squeeze every square foot of water they can to maximise the number of berths because nowadays everyone and his cat has got a boat, therefore the demand for moorings nowadays is huge.

But I have seen how in the Netherlands, for example, the old seafaring skills of handling under sail continue to exist. I have seen jaw dropping manovres carried out in tight marinas by Botters, Kwaks and Poons coming in and out of berths and locks in and around the Islemeer.

The French also are great at sail handling and mooring up. I have seen it in Cherbourg, and at night too.

The question of trying again is to try again, slowly. This implies retaining control all the time.

When I studied at the School of Navigation in Tower Hill in London, the school had a tank in the basement about the size of a swimming pool, not very deep, only about a yard.

There were fans and pumps to generate wind and tidal flow.

As students we were taught the principles of shiphandling using remote controlled models, and we took it in turn under tuition to manoevre replicas of sail and motor vessels.

As an aside, the school also had a working planetarium with a domed ceiling and semi circular seating for a whole class of up to 50. Here we would be taught star and planet identification and celestial principles for the purpose of celestial navigation at sea.

We had a Deviascope, with which we were taught to calibrate and adjust magnetic compasses.

All of these, which must have cost a FORTUNE have disappeared, been trashed, made obsolete.

So what do you expect ? What exactly can be expected from a nation with a great maritime history when the navy is being shrunk, when teaching colleges are run down or closed, when syllabuses are watered down ? What can be expected ?

I have said many times that the RYA has sliced the syllabuses in half.

Then if there is a culture that does not pursue the principle of academic excellence in marine studies not only for professionals but more importantly for amateur sailors the result we get is the dilemmas being suffered today.

 

[VO5]

I'm a bit worried at the way the mags often treat "picking up a mooring under sail" as a rare, difficult and slightly odd thing to do. Anchoring too.

Yes, aren't they funny ?

Particularly nowadays with swifties available and electric windlasses with foot buttons on deck.

Pathetic really.

 

[westernman]

There are very few berths you cannot get into if you have a dinghy, enough crew, two anchors, enough rope and are determined to do it.

Before launching the dinghy though, I just start the engine like the rest of you lazy lot.

 

[VO5]

Yes, aren't they funny ?

Particularly nowadays with swifties available and electric windlasses with foot buttons on deck.

Pathetic really.

Oh ! I forgot....and bow thrusters as well...

 

[chrisedwards]

I have Cunliffe's book right here on my shelf. Yes, of course, if you can't get in you have to go to an anchor.

You raise several points as a cluster of comments.

Dilemmas, dilemmas and more dilemmas.

Navy Berths, yes. But where is the navy today ? When I was a lad this harbour was humming day and night , ship's whistles, clanking chains, rivetting...all gone.

The tide has turned towards privatisation. And with privatisation come the marinas. And the marinas squeeze every square foot of water they can to maximise the number of berths because nowadays everyone and his cat has got a boat, therefore the demand for moorings nowadays is huge.

But I have seen how in the Netherlands, for example, the old seafaring skills of handling under sail continue to exist. I have seen jaw dropping manovres carried out in tight marinas by Botters, Kwaks and Poons coming in and out of berths and locks in and around the Islemeer.

The French also are great at sail handling and mooring up. I have seen it in Cherbourg, and at night too.

The question of trying again is to try again, slowly. This implies retaining control all the time.

When I studied at the School of Navigation in Tower Hill in London, the school had a tank in the basement about the size of a swimming pool, not very deep, only about a yard.

There were fans and pumps to generate wind and tidal flow.

As students we were taught the principles of shiphandling using remote controlled models, and we took it in turn under tuition to manoevre replicas of sail and motor vessels.

As an aside, the school also had a working planetarium with a domed ceiling and semi circular seating for a whole class of up to 50. Here we would be taught star and planet identification and celestial principles for the purpose of celestial navigation at sea.

We had a Deviascope, with which we were taught to calibrate and adjust magnetic compasses.

All of these, which must have cost a FORTUNE have disappeared, been trashed, made obsolete.

So what do you expect ? What exactly can be expected from a nation with a great maritime history when the navy is being shrunk, when teaching colleges are run down or closed, when syllabuses are watered down ? What can be expected ?

I have said many times that the RYA has sliced the syllabuses in half.

Then if there is a culture that does not pursue the principle of academic excellence in marine studies not only for professionals but more importantly for amateur sailors the result we get is the dilemmas being suffered today.

Thank you for this and information about your boat.

Good points - food for thought.