Helvic hunter
Active Member
I currently sail a Hunter 265 Bilge keel and find that my optimum pointing angle is 45 degrees. Would I improve this angle considerably by changing rig or changing to a deep fin keeler such as a, Beneteau First 31.7
Sailing Upwind
- Thread starter Helvic hunter
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gull1066
Well-Known Member
Hi Mate,
I think you will find that you cant sail any closer than 45 degrees, no matter what boat you have.
I think you will find that you cant sail any closer than 45 degrees, no matter what boat you have.
dt4134
Well-Known Member
That's rubbish. It depends upon the boat and and even moderately good cruiser racers can get well above 45 degrees.
For example here are the polars for the 31.7
http://www.blur.se/polar/first317_polar.txt
As you can see the optimum TWA gets as good as 36.9 degrees in 20 knots of true wind.
The 31.7 is pretty moderate as a racer (and pretty poor as a cruiser IMHO). More specilised racers can certainly beat that.
V1701
Well-Known Member
There's other factors, e.g. positions of mainsheet traveller & genoa car that can affect how close a boat can go. Mine is also better close hauled with more weight in the bow...
sailorman
Well-Known Member
johnalison
Well-Known Member
The experts will probably disagree with me, but my impression is that in any sort of seaway a larger boat will sail closer to the wind than a smaller one. To make a course of about 45 degrees is a fair aim for a small cruiser, and though some boats will point higher, the leeway they make has to be taken into account.
Modern boats with fin keels and fractional rigs with close sheeting angles certainly sail closer than those of thirty years ago, though older boats like S&Ss and Contessa/Sadlers are more than adequate for many cruisers. The adjustable factors that mainly affect windward speed are the helmsman's skill and the quality of the sails, with laminate jibs giving a major advantage at higher wind speeds.
Windward ability has been a significant factor in my choice of cruisers, but is certainly not the only one.
Modern boats with fin keels and fractional rigs with close sheeting angles certainly sail closer than those of thirty years ago, though older boats like S&Ss and Contessa/Sadlers are more than adequate for many cruisers. The adjustable factors that mainly affect windward speed are the helmsman's skill and the quality of the sails, with laminate jibs giving a major advantage at higher wind speeds.
Windward ability has been a significant factor in my choice of cruisers, but is certainly not the only one.
gull1066
Well-Known Member
What I meant is that you have a 45 degree on sail zone, which is what I thought he was asking about.
Some people have no manors.
Some people have no manors.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
Going close to wind requires optimum sails, slick hull, minimum wetted surface and fin keel. Bilge keels dont help at all as the boat has too much to carry under the water and also bilge keels tend to be more shallow which means more leeway.
My yacht which is shallow bilge keel will fill its sails when close-wind, but will not move much forward due to underwater design.
My yacht which is shallow bilge keel will fill its sails when close-wind, but will not move much forward due to underwater design.
westernman
Well-Known Member
Note that sailing closer to the wind won't necessarily get you faster to your destination. The closer you are, the slower you will be and above all the greater your leeway.
There is an optimimum which occurs when you point a few degrees off the closest you can manage. How many degrees to head off varies from boat to boat. An Americas cup 12M it will be just a couple of degrees. An average AWB is is likely to be at least 5 degrees or more.
Don't confuse pointing angle i.e 1/2 the difference in compass reading between tacks with the 1/2 the angle of your COG between tacks.
Unless you are sailing an out and out racer (12M Americas cup), it is unlikely that you will get your optimum VMG to windward pointing much closer than 45 degrees. You can point closer than that - but check your VMG!
If your COG (without current/tide) changes 90 degrees between tacks you are doing better than almost any AWBs will manage.
In my boat (gaff rigged cutter) in reasonable conditions we will do 105 degrees between tacks for optimal VMG. We can go closer to the wind, but the speed will go down and VMG goes down as well. The leeway will also go up. There is a point where leeway goes up more than the change in pointing angle.
We can point at less than 45 degrees to the wind, but then the leeway and speed aren't great. Optimimum for us is to point about 50 degrees to the wind when we will have just a couple of degrees of leeway to give a COG angle of 105 degrees. If we crack off a couple more degrees, we will go a little bit faster, but not enough to compensate for the difference in heading.
If the wind is strong, we are reefed and the sea is rough (F7 or more) then this degrades to 120 degrees with the additional leeway. At 120 degrees COG between tacks, your VMG is half your speed through the water.
A square rigger can manage to point at about 60 degrees to the wind - but about 80 degrees COG. In strong winds the COG will be close to 90 degrees to the wind! This is why square riggers sometimes took weeks to get out of the English Channel.
There is an optimimum which occurs when you point a few degrees off the closest you can manage. How many degrees to head off varies from boat to boat. An Americas cup 12M it will be just a couple of degrees. An average AWB is is likely to be at least 5 degrees or more.
Don't confuse pointing angle i.e 1/2 the difference in compass reading between tacks with the 1/2 the angle of your COG between tacks.
Unless you are sailing an out and out racer (12M Americas cup), it is unlikely that you will get your optimum VMG to windward pointing much closer than 45 degrees. You can point closer than that - but check your VMG!
If your COG (without current/tide) changes 90 degrees between tacks you are doing better than almost any AWBs will manage.
In my boat (gaff rigged cutter) in reasonable conditions we will do 105 degrees between tacks for optimal VMG. We can go closer to the wind, but the speed will go down and VMG goes down as well. The leeway will also go up. There is a point where leeway goes up more than the change in pointing angle.
We can point at less than 45 degrees to the wind, but then the leeway and speed aren't great. Optimimum for us is to point about 50 degrees to the wind when we will have just a couple of degrees of leeway to give a COG angle of 105 degrees. If we crack off a couple more degrees, we will go a little bit faster, but not enough to compensate for the difference in heading.
If the wind is strong, we are reefed and the sea is rough (F7 or more) then this degrades to 120 degrees with the additional leeway. At 120 degrees COG between tacks, your VMG is half your speed through the water.
A square rigger can manage to point at about 60 degrees to the wind - but about 80 degrees COG. In strong winds the COG will be close to 90 degrees to the wind! This is why square riggers sometimes took weeks to get out of the English Channel.
wiggy
Well-Known Member
I changed from an MG Spring 25 to a 31.7 and upwind is definitely closer particularly in any waves and if lee way is taken into consideration, it's also much more comfortable. I think it makes a great family cruiser, fast, comfortable with all the mod cons my family could want.
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doug748
Well-Known Member
As michaelchapman said, you seem to be doing ok.
The shallow fin First might not show it's strongest suit to windward in a blow.
The shallow fin First might not show it's strongest suit to windward in a blow.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Windward sailing
Ah this is what sailing is really all about. It is the reason some of us like to race our boats. Because windward sailing sorts out the sheep from the goats.
As said to sail well to windward requires everything to be going for you. A sharp helmsman must be aware of every wind shift to both avert slowing down on a knock and and to take advantage of every lift.
You need a keel that gives good lift to minimise lee way so a long fin keel seems to be needed.
You need sails that are exactly right in terms of camber and size for the wind strength so a rig that is adjustable.
Lastly I think you need a water speed indicator (log) and GPS to plot actual VMG velocity made good.
use the water speed log to check to ensure you are not going too fast (so too far off the wind) but not going too slow so you are pinching. There is a speed through the water around hull speed (square root of water line in length in feet) that is ideal.
In any sort of rough water things get harder but weight in the bow can avert the bow lifting a smacking into waves rather than cutting through.
Yes a compass angle between tacks gives a useful tacking angle and should be on a good boat around 80 degrees or better. Yes buy a boat that sails better to windward. Some just don't. good luck olewill
Ah this is what sailing is really all about. It is the reason some of us like to race our boats. Because windward sailing sorts out the sheep from the goats.
As said to sail well to windward requires everything to be going for you. A sharp helmsman must be aware of every wind shift to both avert slowing down on a knock and and to take advantage of every lift.
You need a keel that gives good lift to minimise lee way so a long fin keel seems to be needed.
You need sails that are exactly right in terms of camber and size for the wind strength so a rig that is adjustable.
Lastly I think you need a water speed indicator (log) and GPS to plot actual VMG velocity made good.
use the water speed log to check to ensure you are not going too fast (so too far off the wind) but not going too slow so you are pinching. There is a speed through the water around hull speed (square root of water line in length in feet) that is ideal.
In any sort of rough water things get harder but weight in the bow can avert the bow lifting a smacking into waves rather than cutting through.
Yes a compass angle between tacks gives a useful tacking angle and should be on a good boat around 80 degrees or better. Yes buy a boat that sails better to windward. Some just don't. good luck olewill
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Sheep from goats, indeed. In average/good conditions (15 - 18 knots of wind, moderate sea), I get optimum VMG to windward at 37 degrees off the apparent wind. That gives me a real tacking angle over the ground of just about 90-95 degrees. This is vastly better than my old boat with long keel which could hardly make 120 degrees over ground no matter how hard you tried (old boat was Pearson 365 versus new boat, Moody 54). But I'm hoping to do a little better still with new sails after my winter refit this year. Jjust a few degrees of windward ability make a really big difference in making miles upwind. If I can reliably get 90 degrees, I will be delighted. In my experience, as others have said, you can't realistically hope for better than that in a pure cruising boat.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Also bear in mind that the faster you go, the less leeway you make (because you get more lift off the foils, assuming they are a decent shape of course), but you also create more apparent wind which will have the effect of bearing you off more. So the secret is to find the right balance between the two.
jakeroyd
Well-Known Member
I have a Hunter and find it sails as close to the wind as any other boat out there.
The narrow slot created by the small self tacking foresail helps here.
Out in Plymouth the other day , tacking with a couple of other boats , one an elderly Westerly ketch I could not only point higher but sail faster , predictable yes but it pleased me no end.
What I think you may find is that a bigger and heavier boat is less affected by wave action than a small one and so can be driven harder and faster but not really closer to the wind. This way you will get to your upwind location quicker.
The narrow slot created by the small self tacking foresail helps here.
Out in Plymouth the other day , tacking with a couple of other boats , one an elderly Westerly ketch I could not only point higher but sail faster , predictable yes but it pleased me no end.
What I think you may find is that a bigger and heavier boat is less affected by wave action than a small one and so can be driven harder and faster but not really closer to the wind. This way you will get to your upwind location quicker.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Lots of people do not have manors. The upkeep is horrendous.
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
No, we had to get rid of ours to pay the estate duty!
lw395
Well-Known Member
There are more gains to be had by being on the right tack at the right time, than by worrying that you need a faster boat upwind.
A well sailed bilge keeler that gets on the right side of the shifts can often compare very well against the average fin keel cruiser.
To get those polars, you probably need a full team of fatties on the rail for one thing.
A well sailed bilge keeler that gets on the right side of the shifts can often compare very well against the average fin keel cruiser.
To get those polars, you probably need a full team of fatties on the rail for one thing.
ditchcrawler
Well-Known Member
It is not a a fair comparison to compare a well sailed bilge keeler to an average fin keeler.I have had 2 Hunter twin keelers and indeed they do go pretty well to windward but not as well as a fin keeler.Using the Byron software handicaps a Hunter27 is rated at 1017 for the fin and 1105 for the twin keel.Likewise the Hunter 30 is 976 and 1061.As it happens both differences are about 8% between fin and twin.My own boat a Moody31 has a difference of about 5% between fin and twin.There tends to be not much difference downwind but it will be noticeable upwind.On a recent sail my own fin keeler was sailing with a Westerly Storm Cruiser twin keel but pointed higher which the owner said he thought was about 3/4 degrees.All things being equal a fin version of the same boat according to the handicaps is faster than the twin keel version.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Cant answer for the two boats you quote but the difference between my last bilge keeler ( Moody 336 and a very good performer for a bilgie) and my present fin is somewhere between 5 and 10 degrees. But part of this is leeway and in terms of sheer pointing its probably only about 5 degrees. Very noticeable when racing nevertheless.
In cruising ? I wouldnt bother. The inconvenience of a deep fin outweighs the gain in pointing IMO