Sailing end in sight

[Seven Spades]

Self made problem of the marine industry. When 35-40ft boats are sold as 'starter' boats and anything smaller is uncool, you are pricing everyone including most of us out of the sport.

When I were a lad... (not that long ago) a starter boat was 20-25ft, the current 'I want it and I want it now' generation will need to learn that it cannot happen like that. The next generation should be ok as they will, like us, start from an attainable aspiration point to go sailing.

I don't think that is fair. The reason the boats got bigger is because there is a marginal increase in cost between a 30' and a 36-38' boat. The high volume manufacturers were able to bring down the cost of a 36' boat to under £60k ten years ago and lots were sold. The modern problems are a direct result of low interest and the internet and taxation.

What we will see is a huge increase in demand for chartering rather than ownership.

 

[Seven Spades]

I'd love it if sailing declined to the point where there are very few moorings cluttering up all the South Coast Harbours and a lot less people around at weekends. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.

No this would be a disaster. Because what would happen is that we would lose most of the shore services and they would convert "brown field" boat yards to housing and once lost, they are lost forever. You only need to look to Plymouth to see what can happen.

 

[Daydream believer]

In France I see a very strong training insailing at school level but i am told that many kids stop when they leave school. In our club we are attracting loads of kids currently but I doubt that they will stay.
The reason is the same as in France - university. Once school leavers leave home & have to start going to university education& pick up all the add ons , debt etc. sailing gets the heave ho & few return.
In the 60's & 70's this did not happen & kids in cadets went on to faster more adult dinghies & gradually progressed in the sport without a break. The families stuck together & all stayed involved. That does not happen in the same way now.

 

[Open Throttle]

This thread is quite interesting. From my own experience I have many friends with boats (mainly motor boats) but that's because I live on the Thames on a very active stretch. That said I think out of all my boat owning friends I'm the youngest at 31 and I suppose the average owner age is probably 45. Whilst I have a few friends my age or younger that like being out on the boat they don't actually own their own.

A mate of mine is Rear Commodore of the local sailing club and there are a lot of teenagers getting involved on the weekends but I agree, it doesn't appear to be sustainable. The reality is that it can be done realtively cheap - my speedboat owes me less than £1500 including insurance and licence, and whilst i'm fortunate enough to have a free private mooring its small enough to sit on a trailer on the driveway if need be. I think there are many illusions when it comes to boating cost and I think that puts the younger generation off a bit.

 

[lw395]

In France I see a very strong training insailing at school level but i am told that many kids stop when they leave school. In our club we are attracting loads of kids currently but I doubt that they will stay.
The reason is the same as in France - university. Once school leavers leave home & have to start going to university education& pick up all the add ons , debt etc. sailing gets the heave ho & few return.
In the 60's & 70's this did not happen & kids in cadets went on to faster more adult dinghies & gradually progressed in the sport without a break. The families stuck together & all stayed involved. That does not happen in the same way now.

There is some truth in that, but it is not a new phenomenon.
It is a general thing now that more people leave home to work.
Some people come back to sailing when they are 30 or older. Often bringing a family with them.

 

[Biggles Wader]

I recollect that sailing was always very much a minority pursuit and it still is. Back in the 70s/80s there were surely far fewer marinas and far fewer small boats with a much smaller yachting business sector to go with it. Yes all that expanded over the last two or three decades but don't we now have a classic case of over supply in both boats and facilities? There will be a correction as there always is in such circumstances and a more sustainable balance will result.

 

[MountainGoat]

I would love to have another boat but being on the E coast many moorings are drying/part tide which does not suit the type of boat or sailing I am interested in and marina or deep water moorings so insanely expensive that the cost just cannot be justified. Laying out the capital for a boat is hard enough but you do get much of it back then you sell, but the thousands it costs to keep the damn thing tied up makes my eyes water. For a 35 footer the marina cost alone gets me 4 weeks charter on a 45ft bendytoy in Greece with 3 others sharing for a whole month! Add maintenance, insurance and an engine/sails fund and it must be more like 6 or 7 weeks.

You're completely right. I'm Gen X (43 years old), own a Sun Odyssey 30i in a marina. I'm well aware it's an indulgence, but I enjoy tinkering as much as I enjoy sailing her.

 

[robertj]

I visited the Solent for the first time last weekend and did not see any evidence to support your theory.

thank god for that but the solent isn't everywhere is it?

 

[lw395]

I've said before, joining fees are outdated and clubs should look at scrapping them. People know they have to pay a membership fee but an aditional joining fee is just a kick in the teeth and not a welcoming thing. More alike joing an elite club, a young family looking to get into sailing in the cheapest form, buying a dinghy (£1000) and gear(£500), insurance (£100), courses (£500) and paying membership fee (£200) (plus the usual key deposit), boat park fees (£100) then being asked to stump up another £50-100 to be accepted is off putting IMO.

People want adventures and experiences, make memories etc, clubs need to reconise this and provide more one day taster sessions to catch new members. There's an understandable resistance to new things (including new members in clubs, mainly from long standing members) but lots of promotion, social media, local papers, open social events.

Possibly put together and "sell" a "new member package" that runs through the year, not just one weekend in the Summer.

1 years membership
Free 1-2-family "start sailing taster" (club tour, basic rigging and launching of the boat, 1 hour sail, etc)
Discounted "family" RYA training
25 hours use of club boats (prebooked) (then rented afterwards to encourage buying their own)

Even if people only do it for a year, thats a years membership the club might not have had and if every other member continues for a second year even better.

*I understand it does require existing members to put in a lot of extra effort (which I can understand people may not have the time)
** I've never been on a sailing club committee so feel free to ignore all of the above.

Always lots of people suggesting this.
Many clubs do not have a joining fee.
The one I most recently joined, which could do with a few more members IMHO, not only has no joining fee, but I joined late season and got several months free.
Of course for many people there are a lot of first year costs, like training courses, clothing, maybe even a boat.

Many clubs are rightly wary of trying too hard to boost membership, its been seen before that you get an inrush of members who don't stay long and are a negative to the long term members.

The other point is that most clubs are quite happy being the size they are. Small amateur-run clubs can get by with low numbers. It's the big clubs with hordes of paid staff which get in trouble when the tide turns.

 

[Arcady]

As far as I'm concerned that is definitely what is NOT required.

A few years ago, the BBC went nuts about the Lake District with several programmes devoted to the area. My wife an I had, up until then, always spent a week renting a holiday cottage and walking in the Lakes. But after the BBC splurge, the Lakes became more overcrowded than ever and the prices of holiday cottages went through the roof. We have stopped going as a result.

I'm quite happy with sailing having a low profile in the media.

I agree. I have always been puzzled and a little concerned by the great push by the RYA and others to get more people out sailing. I am surely not alone in choosing to go sailing precisely because it is an opportunity to get away from other people. For decades we have risked destroying the very pleasure we all seek. If there is a general downturn in the market, I for one welcome it - that is untiI come to sell my boat one day ;-)

 

[robertj]

Twenty or thirty years ago you really had to own a boat to go sailing. Now you don't. You can carter for two weeks a year somewhere far nicer than the UK for the cost of a mid-size annual marina berth - and you escape the hassles of maintenance, insurance and so on as well as getting to sail a nice new-ish boat.

Fewer boats no more indicates less sailing than fewer pianos in houses indicates less listening to music.

no i disagree you didnt have to own a boat to go sailing nothing has changed there, what has changed is the ownership comes from old/older members of the community who can afford it.
your last analogy of pianos compared to sailing is just ridiculous!

 

[robertj]

I agree with most of what's already been said i.e. economics etc. Another factor which I don't think has been mentioned is the deteriorating weather, up here in the NW at any rate. The marina I use is (comparatively) reasonably priced and full of boats many or most of which rarely or never seem to go out. I myself have only been out a few times this year: the conditions outside have so often been cold, wet and windy - totally unappealing unless you're a gung ho merchant or a masochist. I remember it being forecast that for the UK global warming would lead to wetter and windier weather than warmer, that certainly seems to be the case up here.

yes I agree the south is no different in that department. Many of us migrate to France etc to enjoy better weather giving our neighbours our custom.

 

[Tranona]

thank god for that but the solent isn't everywhere is it?

No, but there are huge areas that have opened up to boating , particularly in the north with the conversion of commercial facilities into leisure facilities. However, unlike the South coast they will never be "big" because of the more demanding sailing, lack of places to go to and the lack of a dense wealthy local population. The popular areas in the south and south west and to a certain extent SW Scotland are so because they have most of those things in their favour, particularly the range of places within day sail reach to sail to.

So, in my case in Poole I am 15 minutes from the boat which is in a club marina with access at all states of the tide, straight into deep water. Lots of anchorages within the harbour. Go out of the harbour and a big, open but relatively sheltered bay to play in, the Solent 15 miles one way, 30 miles of coast to Weymouth the other and 60 miles to France.

 

[robertj]

No, but there are huge areas that have opened up to boating , particularly in the north with the conversion of commercial facilities into leisure facilities. However, unlike the South coast they will never be "big" because of the more demanding sailing, lack of places to go to and the lack of a dense wealthy local population. The popular areas in the south and south west and to a certain extent SW Scotland are so because they have most of those things in their favour, particularly the range of places within day sail reach to sail to.

So, in my case in Poole I am 15 minutes from the boat which is in a club marina with access at all states of the tide, straight into deep water. Lots of anchorages within the harbour. Go out of the harbour and a big, open but relatively sheltered bay to play in, the Solent 15 miles one way, 30 miles of coast to Weymouth the other and 60 miles to France.

well thanks for that. Is there or not a decline of boating around you, also are they younger aswell?

 

[oldharry]

I only pop in here once every couple of weeks to see what is happening.

One thing I have noticed (maybe incorrectly - I can't arsed to do any analysis) is that there are fewer posts and responses compared to say five years ago.

Is that another sign of sailing decay with people dropping out and not many new people coming in?

Neither really. The forum used to have 8 - 10k active members. In the last 2 years its dropped to fairly steady 3500. The general feeling is that other forums have poached some members, and that other forms of social media such as Facebook and Twitter have gained in popularity. But I'm interested nobody on this thread has mentioned the consistently lousy string of bad summers as a factor. I know of a number both on and off the forum who have just given up on spending their main summer vacation tied up in a Marina waiting for a break in the weather, having consistently failed to achieve their objective due to bad weather for several years running. Its no more expensive to head off somewhere where decent weather is more or less guaranteed and charter, or do something else non-boaty, while keeping the family happy and enjoying a worthwhile holiday. Yes young people don't have the time or money for sailing, partly because they are having to fund mortgages many times bigger than we had to when we first started boating. Also, modern youngsters expect much more. Roughing it anything smaller than a 28 - 30 footer just isn't how many modern younger people want to spend their spare time nowadays, reflected in the fact the Industry now sells 35 -40 footers as starter boats, with all mod cons, showers, heating, freezer ,microwave and all!

At least in a motor caravan you are independent of the weather forecast to achieve your destination, even if its still raining when you get there!

 

[Sea-Fever]

Boating is cery much discretionary spend.
The debt run up by Brown was fun whilst the credit card was taking the brunt.. now it is payback time for the next generation.

Wow, it's a good thing I'm not yet retired as reading stuff like this would probably give me a stroke.

Yes of course that's why boating is being ditched...young people have credit cards. Silly young people, spending a few hundred quid on iPads and the like. Silly young people for going on a "foreign holiday". There's no way old people have iPads - that's how they can afford yachts. There's no way old people spend money on restaurants or cars - that's how they afford yachts. Old people only eat value baked beans...that's how they afford yachts!

Plus old people worked like forever from when they were born to when they were ninety five - that's how they afford yachts.

Silly young people. From whose loins did all these young people come from? They are so silly.

Grrrrr.

Ok. I'm over it now. I might make a useful contribution shortly.

 

[Bobc]

Wow, it's a good thing I'm not yet retired as reading stuff like this would probably give me a stroke.

Yes of course that's why boating is being ditched...young people have credit cards. Silly young people, spending a few hundred quid on iPads and the like. Silly young people for going on a "foreign holiday". There's no way old people have iPads - that's how they can afford yachts. There's no way old people spend money on restaurants or cars - that's how they afford yachts. Old people only eat value baked beans...that's how they afford yachts!

Plus old people worked like forever from when they were born to when they were ninety five - that's how they afford yachts.

Silly young people. From whose loins did all these young people come from? They are so silly.

Grrrrr.

Ok. I'm over it now. I might make a useful contribution shortly.

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[JumbleDuck]

No this would be a disaster. Because what would happen is that we would lose most of the shore services and they would convert "brown field" boat yards to housing and once lost, they are lost forever. You only need to look to Plymouth to see what can happen.

There was plenty of sailing before marinas displaced moorings. Most boats in marinas rarely if ever move; trade for support services is generated mostly by the minority who will keep on sailing.

 

[JumbleDuck]

no i disagree you didnt have to own a boat to go sailing nothing has changed there, what has changed is the ownership comes from old/older members of the community who can afford it.

You generally had to own a boat or know someone who did. While there were charter boats available twenty years ago, they were not as numerous or as cheap as they are now. For the cost of a modern Silhouette equivalent you could have several months in Croatia.

Sailing isn't only affordable to older members of the community. Old boats in good nick are amazingly cheap at the moment - it's getting to the point where £5k is a lot to pay for a good Centaur with a recent engine - so buying a boat has never been cheaper ... or less necessary. We oldies own boats because we always have, not because we can afford it or because it makes any sense.

your last analogy of pianos compared to sailing is just ridiculous!

I'm sorry you think so. Let me try to expand. A hundred years ago houses were full of pianos, accordions, fiddles and other musical instruments because by and large if you wanted music, you made it. Radios did for pianos, recordings did for the radio and streaming has done for recordings. The UK used to support a huge number of cheap piano makers and now supports none, but people still listen to music. Few young people own many CDs either ... it's all in the cloud.

Similarly, just because there are fewer boats in some marinas doesn't mean that people are doing less sailing, just that they are doing less sailing from that marina. The sensible ones are in Croatia.

 

[Tranona]

well thanks for that. Is there or not a decline of boating around you, also are they younger aswell?

Indeed we do. Much the same as described by others. Very active young and dinghy sections. Breeding grounds for a steady stream of successful young people at national, international and olympic levels, but most disappear at the age 18-20. Full marina with long waiting list, full swinging moorings BUT average age of boat owners probably in the 60s and less active. Pro active in attracting new members with open days and tasters etc so membership close to full.

However in harbour as a whole, much less activity as the entry and low cost end of the market has collapsed. Far fewer moorings in use but laying up boatyards nearly full all year round with older 20-30' sub £10k boats. Less sailing activity outside the 3 big club activities, partly as oldharry says because of lousy weather. Last bank holiday weekend was like most weekends used to be in the (perhaps rose tinted) olden days.

Having had a boat in Greece for 10 years as well as a boat here I agree with many of the sentiments expressed here. We used to get more real use out of the boat in a week out there than in a year here simply because of the reliable weather. If my age/health situation were different we would still have a boat there in preference to here. But it is a different type of boating and for those who like challenging weather and sailing the UK is still one of the best - just fewer people value that sort of thing, particularly for family sailing.

That I think is the long term trend. Peoples' expectations (and choices) have changed out of all recognition in the last 40 years and all this nostalgic talk is just that. Pretty sure that if today's disposable income was available 40 years ago without today's choices, pottering around in a 24' would still be popular. It is the widening in choice (which of course is not unconnected with the massive increase in wealth) that makes the difference. If anybody had said as I was building my 19' Sea Wych kit in 1976 that I would be buying a new 37' to be based in the Med just 25 years later I would have said they were mad.