Sailing dinghies left on moorings, excluding Wayf & Wanderers

[Greenheart]

NO! The 420 is a smaller 505

Hmmmmmm....aside from whatever bottomless, ineradicable loyalty or paranoia that represents, should I infer that the 420 mainsail's aspect/shape/battening/behaviour is similar to the 505's? And might the smaller boat's main fit the larger's mainsail track?

Andy, I notice that the 505 is proportionally marginally narrower than the 420's 5'4"...hence both on the beamy side.

SWMBO's teensy Nissan had a rather flat battery this morning...and it was all I could do to shunt the car sixty feet up a slight hill to push-start it. Of course, the fact that the brake-light kept flickering on, made me wonder if SWMBO might be enjoying making me suffer...

...but it was a reminder of my own less-than-superhuman strength. I daresay even a Wayfarer only weighs a fifth of the Micra, and in truth I think SWMBO's tyres weren't making my trials any easier, but at least I was pushing it on tarmac...not soft stony mud...

...so I'm thinking light boats again...not that the 420 was ever my fave...

...excuse me, just off to Kwik-fit for a new battery. Not Halfords!

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

handling boats ashore remains a serious problem; I could just about handle the Osprey on a trolley with peneumatic tyres and a jockey wheel, with strong crew, on smooth concrete ( quite steeply sloped though ).

An experienced chum gave up dinghy sailing as he found even a Solo a right pain to recover up the slip, and at my age ( 51 in a fortnight ) back trouble is all too common, I certainly have my share.

 

[dharl]

Dan,


If one was said millionaire, the nearest I can think of is a Salcombe Yawl, and even that doesn't satisfy all parameters, - though I reckon you could put up with one at a pinch...

My Dad had the fiberglass version a Devon Yawl (DY61 called Merlin II) which I learnt to sail in on the River Exe and later Poole Harbour. Lovely boats and forgiving.

I owned a Compesit Mk1 Wayfarer for a while, lovely boats but the deck was a pain to varnish!!

 

[lw395]

Hullo chaps. Not speculating about what I'll be sailing soon...I admit to being undecided there, though I'm smitten by certain designs, nameless for the moment, I hope you understand...I'm just talking dinghy sails with you gents, who evidently know plenty about them...

...I think it was earlier in this thread, the similarity between the Albacore and Firefly's mainsails came up, other than in size...

...and I considered whether, aside from the Alb's inflexible lower mast (and hence its inability to bend, thus not spilling overpowering gusts) the Firefly's main might be set as a small main for an Alb, as one chap whose website I'd found, had demonstrated with photos...

...anyway, I'm curious how many other familiar designs are just bigger, or evolved versions of 'junior' dinghies? I found a quote last night which claimed that in most respects, the 505 is just a big 420. I wonder what any of you, who know both boats, think of that?

Beamy buggers, aren't they!

The 505 is a great sea boat, but it is fairly highly evolved as a racing machine. The whole setup would be wrong for single handing. The rig is powerful, its concept is based on a medium to large person on the trapeze.
Given said person on a trapeze, I would rather face rough weather in a 505 than a Wayfarer any day. The 505 is much easier to get round a course in F7.
I did, many years ago, do a little cruise in an old 505, but it was cruising in the sense of carrying a small tent in a waterproof bag.
The 505 is quite narrow underwater, they are in fact an easily driven hull in light weather.
In very rough water, the flared topsides seem to help keep the aluminium bit pointing skywards. The beam is similar to an RS400, a lot less than a modern Merlin Rocket.

'Dinghy Cruising' means different things to different people, from crossing seas to any pottering that is not racing or instruction.
The only people I have actually met personally who have sailed dinghies to Scilly used Fireballs!

 

[Sybarite]

I'd say the only possible real snag would be not getting it into the garage; I've seen L17 sailors having plenty of fun, maybe not planing but it probably felt like it !

Personally I'd rate it as a lot more fun than lugging a Wayfarer around even if occasionally, and righting one solo after getting it wrong doesn't bear thinking about.

Like most things, they have done the Atlantic; if you should want to see the rest of the brochure you know where I am...

Pity about the large hole in the transom...

 

[westernman]

Dan,

handling boats ashore remains a serious problem; I could just about handle the Osprey on a trolley with peneumatic tyres and a jockey wheel, with strong crew, on smooth concrete ( quite steeply sloped though ).

An experienced chum gave up dinghy sailing as he found even a Solo a right pain to recover up the slip, and at my age ( 51 in a fortnight ) back trouble is all too common, I certainly have my share.

On anything less than a perfect hard surface (tarmac), big balloon wheels help a lot. Where I used to sail, people used to single hand Hobie Cat Tigers (400 lbs) and launch/recover and get them up the beach single handed - using big balloon wheels (Cat Trax).

Like this:-
http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant...Code=13-1401&Category_Code=C-TP&Store_Code=MS

However, most dinghy launching trolleys seem to be tiny little solid wheels which must make life very very hard.

 

[lw395]

On anything less than a perfect hard surface (tarmac), big balloon wheels help a lot. Where I used to sail, people used to single hand Hobie Cat Tigers (400 lbs) and launch/recover and get them up the beach single handed - using big balloon wheels (Cat Trax).

Like this:-
http://www.murrays.com/mm5/merchant...Code=13-1401&Category_Code=C-TP&Store_Code=MS

However, most dinghy launching trolleys seem to be tiny little solid wheels which must make life very very hard.

Most bigger dinghies use wheelbarrow tyres.
On soft ground, wider or bigger tyres might help.

 

[fluffc]

The Wayfarers that are left on moorings are probably the Mark II SD (self draining) and has the sole / floor bonded to the hull to give additional sealed buoyancy caused by the space under the floor. This version of the Wayfarer was designed this way for sailing schools who wanted to moor their dinghies instead of stowing them on shore. Rain or spray runs across the floor which is above the water line and into recesses where the self bailers are. By leaving the self bailers open, accumulations of water just drain into the sea, thus eliminating the destabilising effect of free surface area caused by pooled water.

I don't know of other dinghies left on a mooring permanently.

Wayfarer Versions

All marks of Wayfarer can be left on moorings, provided they are bailed.

 

[Greenheart]

The 505 is a great sea boat, but it is fairly highly evolved as a racing machine. The whole setup would be wrong for single handing. The rig is powerful, its concept is based on a medium to large person on the trapeze.

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's wrong on almost all counts, for my leisurely purposes, but it's nice looking at a flyer, examples of which can be found cheaply.

I found footage of a 505 being singlehanded...not thrilling, but it's apparent how light & willing the boat is, even in a very light wind. Pity he doesn't employ a seven-foot tiller-extension and trepeze. ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0g09vzd5oE

 

[lw395]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's wrong on almost all counts, for my leisurely purposes, but it's nice looking at a flyer, examples of which can be found cheaply.

I found footage of a 505 being singlehanded...not thrilling, but it's apparent how light & willing the boat is, even in a very light wind. Pity he doesn't employ a seven-foot tiller-extension and trepeze. ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0g09vzd5oE

The late Great Paul Evlstrom used to helm his from the trapeze, but with a crew for racing.

 

[BrianH]

All marks of Wayfarer can be left on moorings, provided they are bailed.

I kept my Mk I Wayfarer permanently on a mooring in Whitby harbour - she had a well-fitting boom cover down to the gunwale that kept her dry.

But I had a shock one evening sailing out in the bay single-handed when she capsized in a strong wind (she had been planing earlier). With some help from a beam wind she came up easily enough but promptly rolled right over again - pushed over by that same wind. She was pivoting on the fore and aft buoyancy, the watertight compartments that comprised the fore and aft decking. Only when she was completely in-line with the wind could I keep her upright, climb in over the stern and bail like crazy with the tied-in bucket. I was young and fit in those days.

Only later was side-deck buoyancy added, I think. Of course, there was nothing to stop adding buoyancy bags under the side seating, which would have been a seamanlike thing to do, but I sold her soon after.

Before the Wayfarer, short of boat and funds, I started building a Fireball in the local woodwork evening classes - so easy, hard-chine ply panels. I sold that half-finished when the Wayfarer was offered at a bargain price.

So I never got to sail a Fireball until a lifetime later in Switzerland when I bought a composite one for sailing on the local lake. What a fantastic experience that was, a beautifully balanced boat that I could sail single-handed in all wind conditions - even to helming while out on trapeze.

 

[lw395]

I kept my Mk I Wayfarer permanently on a mooring in Whitby harbour - she had a well-fitting boom cover down to the gunwale that kept her dry.

But I had a shock one evening sailing out in the bay single-handed when she capsized in a strong wind (she had been planing earlier). With some help from a beam wind she came up easily enough but promptly rolled right over again - pushed over by that same wind. She was pivoting on the fore and aft buoyancy, the watertight compartments that comprised the fore and aft decking. Only when she was completely in-line with the wind could I keep her upright, climb in over the stern and bail like crazy with the tied-in bucket. I was young and fit in those days.

Only later was side-deck buoyancy added, I think. Of course, there was nothing to stop adding buoyancy bags under the side seating, which would have been a seamanlike thing to do, but I sold her soon after.

Before the Wayfarer, short of boat and funds, I started building a Fireball in the local woodwork evening classes - so easy, hard-chine ply panels. I sold that half-finished when the Wayfarer was offered at a bargain price.

So I never got to sail a Fireball until a lifetime later in Switzerland when I bought a composite one for sailing on the local lake. What a fantastic experience that was, a beautifully balanced boat that I could sail single-handed in all wind conditions - even to helming while out on trapeze.

Side buoyancy can be a two-edged sword, as it floats the boat higher on its side and encourages inversion. Capsizing a Merlin was a revelation. They tend to have relatively little buoyancy, but they are easy to right and sail away compared to many other dinghies.

 

[Greenheart]

I never got to sail a Fireball until I bought a composite one for the local lake. What a fantastic experience that was, a beautifully balanced boat that I could sail single-handed in all wind conditions - even helming while out on trapeze.

Indeed? I'd have supposed the Fireball was one of those designs least controllable in a hard wind - very narrow and massively canvassed. Not a boat I ever coveted as it appears to me to be a capsize looking for a chance - at least if I were at the helm...

...but today's posts here suggest that despite her flat-ish panels and fairly extreme dimensions, she's quite the rough weather seaboat, and even friendly to singlehanders! Who'd have thought it.

My taste for yacht-like dry spaces and stability is out of place in most dinghies...especially if I'm hoping for exciting performance too. But I do believe there are designs which achieve almost everything, and loyal fans are quick to point out that their choice is one such...

...and it's enduringly interesting (to me at least) to read of them.

I suppose the ply GP14 ought to be my ideal...fairly tough & roomy, certainly cheap, and not problematic to modify with whatever my latest craziness may be. Trouble is, I'm not won over by its looks, or its enormous weight for its size, or its fairly indifferent performance.

I read about a father-&-kids Wayfarer crew cruising somewhere remote, a mile offshore with a distant destination; all going well, until the inebriated young crew of a much faster racing dinghy circled them for some mischievous fun, bellowing and being generally obnoxious...

...no great outrage ensued, but the Wayfarer's skipper was reminded of how pedestrian his 'safe' choice of dinghy was. Not that I'm burdened with offspring, nor am I terrified by boisterous over-imbibers, but there are always some times when performance is welcome.

Oh, for a Flying Dutchman. And a couple of gals trapezing. And ten years' experience of how to tame the beast.

 

[Seajet]

Hmmm,

I used to crew a Fireball for a few years in the Snowflake winter series at Chichester; it was fine in the harbour - I reckoned it a crews' boat as that was the fun end, the helm was pretty neutral, not much feel - when we took part in the round Hayling Island race in a F6 we got trashed, 7 capsizes...it just scoops up waves, hopeless.

We did sort of 'cruise' it, on a repositioning trip around Chichester Harbour, we had a tent stowed by the c/b case & camped at each end of the trip, and cooked soup under way on a gaz stove, which got a few looks from the cruisers coming out of the marina -it was F2 max I add !

 

[Greenheart]

Sounds like a lot of fun. I may have been unfair to the Fireball...that famous singlehanded boat...

 

[lw395]

Fireballs are generally regarded as not a happy choice for the Solent, but they come into their own in the 'proper' waves you get at places like Shoreham.
Having sailed both, I prefer the 505, although it pays to have a big crew in the 505.

 

[Seajet]

I think I'm right in saying the Fireball was designed without the trapeze to start with; well I was a bit lighter when I crewed one, but it still seems crazy, I'm sure two of me now still couldn't hold it up just hiking !

 

[BrianH]

Fireballs are generally regarded as not a happy choice for the Solent, but they come into their own in the 'proper' waves you get at places like Shoreham.

Like here, for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yf-2KN9FfQ

 

[lw395]

I think I'm right in saying the Fireball was designed without the trapeze to start with; well I was a bit lighter when I crewed one, but it still seems crazy, I'm sure two of me now still couldn't hold it up just hiking !

I believe so. Also no spinnaker.
But 14's and the like had big sails before they had a trapeze, let alone two.

 

[Seajet]

It's hard to tell the wave size from that masthead view, I suspect when we had our unhappy experience off Hayling we were asking rather a lot, it was quite lumpy and the Fireball just kebabed the waves in front and took the lot onboard...