Sailboat Market under £20k

[Stemar]

It's often stated that a ship 'should have but one captain' - but observation suggests it's rarely the one you think it is.

Of course, I'm the captain - I'm responsible for sailing, managing and maintaining the boat, but I do it under orders from the Admiral. If I don't think it's a good idea, I can refuse the order, just like in the RN, but, like in the RN, there's a significant risk of consequences

 

[Cerebus]

It helps if you are flexible in outlook. Waiting for a Fulmar that is clean, near you, with all the right updates and a bargain price could be a long job but if you consider a range of alternatives and don't mind travelling, there are bargains about.

For example check this out:

Pardon our interruption...

It could be a dog for all I know but it seems worth looking at and is struggling to get bids on 7 grand.

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Having read the description and seen the 3 second video I would not have travelled a single mile to view such a boat.

 

[WoodyP]

My wife's view on purchasing a horse is to put a bottom in the market. She has no shame and isn't upset at a rejection. It's amazing how often people come back to see if the offer is still available.
Try that.

 

[JIMS44]

I wonder where future buyers for British coastal cruising sailboats will come from in the years to come. I’m in my early 40s, and in our cruising area of Wales, there wasn’t many our age at sailing clubs or gets togethers on the water. But, head to Greece for a charter or flotilla and we always met families of similar age. None really had any intention of boat ownership back in the UK. Tides, weather and cost seem to be the turn off. Everyone’s happy to pay for a week or two, sailing in the sun tho.

 

[Babylon]

Good observation. Compared to the very heavy weighting towards older members (i.e. 60s to 80s) in my South Coast yacht club, relatively younger middle-aged sailors with families like yourself are conspicuously absent. Yes there's the odd couple with a kid or maybe two, plus there's the more youthful contingent of weekend racing types (20s to perhaps 30s), sometimes the parents of Optimist-aged kids if there's an event on, but your age group are normally nowhere to be seen - either in the club or on the water generally.

After two decades of Channel sailing with my small, older and pretty basic yacht, in recent years I've also done an annual week-long 45ft charter with friends in different parts of the Med. Totally different activity! One is a pure and essentially very easy holiday with cold lagers and hot showers on demand, the other is much more involved undertaking, both in terms of ongoing responsibility for a boat and in sailing in tidal waters and usually more challenging weather patterns!

The impact of your observation however is clear: even if a handful of younger parents who normally charter decide to invest in a boat in the UK, they're most likely to want to buy a modern boat akin to the sort of thing they've rented in the Med, not some old Westerly or the suchlike.

 

[mrming]

Good observation. Compared to the very heavy weighting towards older members (i.e. 60s to 80s) in my South Coast yacht club, relatively younger middle-aged sailors with families like yourself are conspicuously absent. Yes there's the odd couple with a kid or maybe two, plus there's the more youthful contingent of weekend racing types (20s to perhaps 30s), sometimes the parents of Optimist-aged kids if there's an event on, but your age group are normally nowhere to be seen - either in the club or on the water generally.

After two decades of Channel sailing with my small, older and pretty basic yacht, in recent years I've also done an annual week-long 45ft charter with friends in different parts of the Med. Totally different activity! One is a pure and essentially very easy holiday with cold lagers and hot showers on demand, the other is much more involved undertaking, both in terms of ongoing responsibility for a boat and in sailing in tidal waters and usually more challenging weather patterns!

The impact of your observation however is clear: even if a handful of younger parents who normally charter decide to invest in a boat in the UK, they're most likely to want to buy a modern boat akin to the sort of thing they've rented in the Med, not some old Westerly or the suchlike.

There’s a couple of things that puzzle me still.

First is how do people who don’t skipper a boat regularly get comfortable with renting a large charter boat and parking it without getting a divorce. Sailing once a year having done a course surely must lead to some pretty rusty boat handling.

Second, we’d all like a more modern boat, but where do these couples with kids in their late 30s / early 40s get the cash? Sure they might stretch to a 20 year old AWB, but unless they’re very wealthy they’re not ordering anything fancier. That’s why you don’t see them in new-ish boats in the UK imo. It’s all people 60+. In today’s economy, people with kids and mortgages have a small amount left over for a decent holiday or two, and if they like sailing then a charter is a two for one.

PS: I sail with my other half and our two kids (in an old Westerly) on the East coast, and I race on the Solent many weekends of the summer. I almost never see anyone our age out sailing with their kids.

 

[Stemar]

Having read the description and seen the 3 second video I would not have travelled a single mile to view such a boat.

I don't think she'd be the boat for me, but it struck me as a very honest description. If I wanted a boat like that, I could be tempted to have a look, and, maybe, make a silly offer.

 

[BobnLesley]

I wonder where future buyers for British coastal cruising sailboats will come from in the years to come... Everyone’s happy to pay for a week or two, sailing in the sun tho.

Beyond 30/40 somethings in 2025 having less disposable income than we could pull together thirty years ago, they also have more options as to what they might spend it on.
Perhaps more significant, is a change in attitude, younger people tend to lease/rent stuff rather than save up and buy it and I don't see that changing as they get older... Their offspring appear to be reliant on the bank of mum and dad for far longer and far fewer will find themselves retiring early with lump sum payoffs and hefty pensions.
My assessment is that in real terms, 30-35' boats are cheaper than they were 6 years ago, a lot cheaper than twelve years ago, but still more more expensive than they are going be in the future... In another 6 years, owners may be paying to get rid of them.

 

[doug748]

............Second, we’d all like a more modern boat, but where do these couples with kids in their late 30s / early 40s get the cash? Sure they might stretch to a 20 year old AWB, s..............

Well now. A minor peripheral point of the sort that goes off at a mad tangent but did you mean to say this. Sounds odd to me.

I'm certain not all of us would like a more modern boat or even a newer one.

I also tend to think of 20 year old boats as rather new. Not a second rate option but a considered purchase for features that are no longer affordable, or even available, new.

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[Mark-1]

First is how do people who don’t skipper a boat regularly get comfortable with renting a large charter boat and parking it without getting a divorce. Sailing once a year having done a course surely must lead to some pretty rusty boat handling.

It's like riding a bike. I read somewhere that if you haven't learned to talk by the time you're 11 you never really can, but if you can it's automatic. I think sailing is the same and all those childhood years sailing up and down in dinghies stay with you in muscle memory and are totally applicable to big boats. Certainly I am(was?) exactly the person you describe, pre kids. I'd never berth a boat between charter trips so essentially two weeks a year (one in Scotland/Baltic, one in the Med) SWMBO and I would be sailing a ~35 footer two handed with no close quarter handling problems at all. And certainly without any verbals. (And I can't parallel park a car so it isn't natural talent!)

Mind you haven't done any sailing quals and I often wonder if quals make everything 10x harder. Doing stuff by rote rather than applying common sense must be difficult. I see it in my kids. 90% of their sailing is just having fun but they do dinghy quals once a year and you can see on their faces when someone is given them tons of verbal instructions that they're just going to ignore it and do what works best. My daughter once said to me after I'd watched a shore demonstration of the RYA method of tacking and wondering how they were ever going to remember it all: "Don't worry, they never check you're doing it that way once you're on the water.". I can't begin to imagine trying to tack a boat with a checklist in my head of where my hands have to go and I'd imagine berthing a boat is the same.

Youth helps too.


EDIT: Which reminds me... On Bav 42 in the Baltic SWMBO and I got back to the starting point. I couldn't see any way of getting into our berth without twatting a post or the neighbouring boat. So I parked up somewhere easy and when the owner came back I apologized and said "I can't get in there but I'll happily handle the lines while you drive.". The guy was fine with that so off we went and he effortlessly put it into its berth... ...smashing one side into the post and the other into his neighbor.

 

[dgadee]

Cheap flights are the problem maybe.

I notice younger French sailors about. And the major races are of national interest.

 

[dgadee]

Beyond 30/40 somethings in 2025 having less disposable income than we could pull together thirty years ago, they also have more options as to what they might spend it on.
Perhaps more significant, is a change in attitude, younger people tend to lease/rent stuff rather than save up and buy it and I don't see that changing as they get older... Their offspring appear to be reliant on the bank of mum and dad for far longer and far fewer will find themselves retiring early with lump sum payoffs and hefty pensions.
My assessment is that in real terms, 30-35' boats are cheaper than they were 6 years ago, a lot cheaper than twelve years ago, but still more more expensive than they are going be in the future... In another 6 years, owners may be paying to get rid of them.

Nah, sub 32 feet will have a problem in marina led areas, I think. Too expensive to moor as against purchase price. You can barely give them away if they haven't been kept up to date.

Twin keel smaller boats will keep value in muddy waters (Firth of Forth) if you get a cheap drying mooring. Longer keel where you can get a cheap non drying mooring.

And with charter boats needing to be 5 years or less, there are a lot of these going private. Will they keep their value if built to IKEA costs?

Old boys keeping moorings and never going out sailing are a problem. One said to me they needed a man's shed. To which I said, get a shed then. Using a cheap harbour mooring just keeps younger sailors out.

 

[Malish]

Old boys keeping moorings and never going out sailing are a problem. One said to me they needed a man's shed. To which I said, get a shed then. Using a cheap harbour mooring just keeps younger sailors out.

My 'new' boat was one of those, hadn't been out of the Salcombe Estuary for at least 5 years, more likely 10; locally referred to as"<owners name> shed". But he took great pleasure from it.. and therein lays a problem...

 

[obmij]

I enjoyed life as a boatowner with young family from mid 30's to mid 40's BUT it is a very difficult balancing act. As others have said there are a lot of competing attractions in the form of foreign holidays in the sunshine, winter holidays, other family commitments etc - and once school looms into view you are stuck with weekends and the limited holidays so you can't just go sailing when the weather is good. Spending all free time on the boat in Wales regardless of weather is a very hard sell and I never managed to make that one stick.

This wouldn't be such as issue if moorings (specifically marinas) were not so expensive. A mooring is fine if you have plenty of free time and can pick and choose your days - but arriving at 6pm on a Friday with rain squalls the last thing you want to do is be loading a toddler into the dink along with the shopping for a soaking wet blast to the boat followed by 2 days of not going very far..so for most of the time we had a marina berth in various places but at an annual cost of 50% of the value of our boat give or take..

We had a great 10 years or so but ultimately couldn't justify the cost of a marina berth together with various foreign holidays. So we sold, and now charter. It was amazing to see how many families were on flotilla whereas we rarely met anyone else in our position when we were sailing in the UK.

I'm still always looking for another boat - but again the marina costs for the size I want would be around £7.5k p.a. I'm not sure I want to spend that for the use we would get.

 

[doug748]

Yes, owning a boat whilst you are working is really, usually a mugs game - unless, perhaps, you live very near and maybe race regularly. Even worse if you have a young family.
The golden time is early retirement when you are still fit and the family have long since gone their own ways. Buy the boat a good few years in advance and the world's your lobster.

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[dgadee]

My 'new' boat was one of those, hadn't been out of the Salcombe Estuary for at least 5 years, more likely 10; locally referred to as"<owners name> shed". But he took great pleasure from it.. and therein lays a problem...

My complainant was whingeing that the harbour would not renew annual moorings if the boat didn't leave the harbour. Sensible approach to have that as a requirement.

 

[Sailing steve]

There’s a couple of things that puzzle me still.

First is how do people who don’t skipper a boat regularly get comfortable with renting a large charter boat and parking it without getting a divorce. Sailing once a year having done a course surely must lead to some pretty rusty boat handling.

Not really.

If you charter in the Med you have no tides or currents to complicate close quarters shunting about and there's nearly always help with berthing stern first Med style from shore based marina staff. Nearly every boat we've chartered has had the unfettered luxury of a bow thruster, and has been a doddle to position when going astern and gaps between moored yachts are usually just the right size to gently roll along each other's fenders as you come in.

If you're using your anchor rather than picking up a lazyline to hold the bow then it's even easier - once it's holding then just slowly pay the chain out as you go astern and point the transom where you want it in exactly the same way as you'd reverse a RIB.

I've only ever seen one disaster when the helm opened the engine right up rather than going into neutral and smashed into the pontoon so hard it rattled everybody's rigging.

I do hope he'd taken out CDW insurance...

 

[Mark-1]

Sensible approach to have that as a requirement.

It is, but in a club situation the geriatrics hogging the moorings are frequently (always) people who have devoted decades to the benefit of the club. It's heartbreaking for the poor guy who has to approach the ex treasurer who was once a leading light of the racing fleet and say "thanks for the 30 years of dedicated mucking in, now you've got a dodgy back can you shift your boat elsewhere so a new member can have your mooring.".

I think if there was a good answer it would have been found. But the problem is real. People can live 20 years in a state where they can't sail, but can't face giving up their mooring either and it cripples clubs and "big boat" sailing in general.

 

[dgadee]

Not really.

If you charter in the Med you have no tides or currents to complicate close quarters shunting about and there's nearly always help with berthing stern first Med style from shore based marina staff. Nearly every boat we've chartered has had the unfettered luxury of a bow thruster, and has been a doddle to position when going astern and gaps between moored yachts are usually just the right size to gently roll along each other's fenders as you come in.

If you're using your anchor rather than picking up a lazyline to hold the bow then it's even easier - once it's holding then just slowly pay the chain out as you go astern and point the transom where you want it in exactly the same way as you'd reverse a RIB.

I've only ever seen one disaster when the helm opened the engine right up rather than going into neutral and smashed into the pontoon so hard it rattled everybody's rigging.

I do hope he'd taken out CDW insurance...

Ha! My folding prop would not allow me to reverse to starboard. I have had the entire crew of a superyacht stand and watch me try to do it (in Kos). After that episode, always bows in. And come out to port, of course.

 

[obmij]

It is, but in a club situation the geriatrics hogging the moorings are frequently (always) people who have devoted decades to the benefit of the club. It's heartbreaking for the poor guy who has to approach the ex treasurer who was once a leading light of the racing fleet and say "thanks for the 30 years of dedicated mucking in, now you've got a dodgy back can you shift your boat elsewhere so a new member can have your mooring.".

I think if there was a good answer it would have been found. But the problem is real. People can live 20 years in a state where they can't sail, but can't face giving up their mooring either and it cripples clubs and "big boat" sailing in general.

I'm guessing the same people are the ones who would be on a committee tasked with considering such a rule, and turkeys generally do not vote for Christmas.