Sail trim maxim - "if in doubt let it out!"

[dunedin]

It frequently occurs to me that the most common mistake I see in large yachts when sailing, is going downwind with the mainsheet pinned in far too tight. This is slow - and can result in loss of control in strong winds.
Those of us who learnt in dinghies were typically told by the instructor regarding mainsheet trim - "if in doubt, let it out". Very simple and effective. If out too far downwind the sail will flap, which is obvious, and can then pull back in slightly. Upwind if overpowered, again if in doubt let it out.

Sailing a Laser or similar downwind with the main in too tight soon teaches a wet lesson. But the folks who learn only on large yachts and then move up the theoretical RYA tickets without small boat sailing sometimes fail to learn this.

Today for example we were out in a brisk breeze. Downwind so we hoisted jib only and romped off in perfect control.
However, a large sail training boat came out and hoisted full main plus, bizarrely, reefed genoa (not a well balanced rig to start with). Then they set off on a broad reach with main pinned in - broached repeatedly, to the extent I was worried they might hit us one time. Finally after another broach they decided to reef. But simply easing the mainsheet they would have been away miles in front of us safely.
An extreme but not unusual example in my experience of similar boats and skippers (the ones I know of all had done no small boat sailing)

 

[awol]

Shhhh! While it may border on schadenfreude, I derive a deal of pleasure from overtaking and/or sailing away from larger, nominally faster, badly trimmed boats. Don't tell them.

 

[FullCircle]

Shhhh! While it may border on schadenfreude, I derive a deal of pleasure from overtaking and/or sailing away from larger, nominally faster, badly trimmed boats. Don't tell them.

But you're not racing though, oh no.

 

[prv]

The stereotype of this is Mediterranean charterers - "we sailed past this island close-hauled last year"

Pete

 

[NormanB]

The stereotype of this is Mediterranean charterers - "we sailed past this island close-hauled last year"

Pete

All generalisations are generally wrong.��

 

[macd]

All generalisations are generally wrong.��

You from Crete?

 

[johnalison]

Having straight spreaders, I often have the pleasure of cruising past slower boats with the currently fashionable swept spreaders with booms in a close-reaching position. Being of a lazy bent, I am probably guilty of sailing much of the time with my jib too far out, and often can't be fagged to move the sheet car, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think this is too sinful.

 

[SimonFa]

Not having a back stay the spreaders on Venezia really are swept back to the point where the boom doesn't have to be out far before the main is against them. I've come to the conclusion that it's better to be on Genoa only when going down wind, especially single handed, in anything stronger that a mild breeze.

As for the school boat, what a good way to learn, assuming the instructor felt they weren't a danger to other boats.

 

[Poey50]

Sailing a Laser or similar downwind with the main in too tight soon teaches a wet lesson. But the folks who learn only on large yachts and then move up the theoretical RYA tickets without small boat sailing sometimes fail to learn this.

I spent 15 years racing Lasers. You get into more trouble with the sail too far out than too far in. The latter is inefficient. But when too far out you can induce the dreaded death-roll. It is a quick sheet-in which re-stablises the boat.

 

[LittleSister]

Having straight spreaders, I often have the pleasure of cruising past slower boats with the currently fashionable swept spreaders with booms in a close-reaching position.

I, too, have straight spreaders, but am always wary of whether I'm putting too much of an unfair load on them when the sail is pressed against them, so don't let the sail fully out. Can anyone advise whether, or how much, this is really an issue?

(Masthead rig. Both shrouds and lowers are in line with the mast, so only rearward support is from the backstay. Mainsheet track is across the stern, so when running not possible to keep the sail flat with the sheet.)

 

[JumbleDuck]

Shhhh! While it may border on schadenfreude, I derive a deal of pleasure from overtaking and/or sailing away from larger, nominally faster, badly trimmed boats. Don't tell them.

I had great fun last year whizzing past a much larger Bavaria who was heading down the Clyde on what should have been a run but with both main and jib sheeted hard in. It came into Port Bannatyne marina later - watching attempts to tack was extremely rewarding, and they motored in from about five miles out - and it was a charter boat. I suspect that they had simply left teh sheets where they were at handover.

 

[aquaplane]

As with all generalisations, it's wrong to assume that all folk not trained in dinghies can't sail.

Or folk who aren't interested in racing folk, who know you are racing them, can't sail either.

 

[Poey50]

I
Mainsheet track is across the stern, so when running not possible to keep the sail flat with the sheet.

Wouldn't you control the fullness of the sail with the kicker under those circumstances?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I, too, have straight spreaders, but am always wary of whether I'm putting too much of an unfair load on them when the sail is pressed against them, so don't let the sail fully out. Can anyone advise whether, or how much, this is really an issue?

(Masthead rig. Both shrouds and lowers are in line with the mast, so only rearward support is from the backstay. Mainsheet track is across the stern, so when running not possible to keep the sail flat with the sheet.)

I find it hard to imagine the canvas of the sail alone exerting any force on a modern rig spreader that would be a problem in any way whatever. The usual worry is wear to the sail.

The boom crash gybing against the rig is a different matter....

 

[flaming]

I find it hard to imagine the canvas of the sail alone exerting any force on a modern rig spreader that would be a problem in any way whatever. The usual worry is wear to the sail.

The boom crash gybing against the rig is a different matter....

Agree. Though my Dad had a Legend for about 8 years, and the main lies on the spreaders from a broad reach on that boat. We hadn't worn through the spreader patches, or even close, after 8 years of hard sailing. And even if you do, sticky backed chafe protectors are available from sailmakers at a pretty nominal cost. It's a non issue really.

And if in doubt let it out is a great maxim. Also very true in light winds going upwind. If you're slow you've probably oversheeted, or over tensioned the halyard, or any other control. If you're unsure what the exact problem is just pick a control at random and ease it. Bet you go faster.

 

[lw395]

All cliches have their limts.
When you're on a dead run in a Laser or similar, if in doubt, think twice before easing sheet or kicker....

 

[john_morris_uk]

All cliches have their limts.
When you're on a dead run in a Laser or similar, if in doubt, think twice before easing sheet or kicker....

Depends if you're overheating and it's time for a swim.

Or you just want to entertain onlookers with your death roll.

 

[dom]

All cliches have their limts.
When you're on a dead run in a Laser or similar, if in doubt, think twice before easing sheet or kicker....

True ...and it opens a fantastic tactical opportunity. Fast heavy air sailing dead downwind is a real skill especially if the sea is rolly. If the second place boat guns it at the weather mark and survives, the leading boat will be instantly thrown onto the back foot psychologically and he may well respond in a way which puts him outside his personal envelope. Then he's done for

 

[SimonFa]

Agree. Though my Dad had a Legend for about 8 years, and the main lies on the spreaders from a broad reach on that boat. We hadn't worn through the spreader patches, or even close, after 8 years of hard sailing. And even if you do, sticky backed chafe protectors are available from sailmakers at a pretty nominal cost. It's a non issue really.

My concern was breaking up the sail shape and I found sheeting in and coming of the spreaders gave me more speed, especially in light winds.

Depends if you're overheating and it's time for a swim.

Or you just want to entertain onlookers with your death roll.

I've just booked a Neilson Beachplus holiday and will be dinghy sailing for the first time in about 8 years. I was a late starter and not very proficient anyway, so no doubt I will be providing the death roll, sail diving and windward capsize entertainment for the first couple of days

 

[[70521]]

Today for example we were out in a brisk breeze. Downwind so we hoisted jib only and romped off in perfect control.
However, a large sail training boat came out and hoisted full main plus, bizarrely, reefed genoa (not a well balanced rig to start with). Then they set off on a broad reach with main pinned in - broached repeatedly, to the extent I was worried they might hit us one time. Finally after another broach they decided to reef. But simply easing the mainsheet they would have been away miles in front of us safely.
An extreme but not unusual example in my experience of similar boats and skippers (the ones I know of all had done no small boat sailing)

Did you ask the large sail training boat if they were doing that for a reason?

I can just hear the instructor saying, "OK guys we are going out and show you what a broach is then get a reef in, Johnny you helm first then Fred can have a go".

There are a few times a year when I do things that are not "usual" just to a) see what the boat does and b) check my skills. I bailed out of a dingy once just to check what the other chap in the boat would do, well he did suggest a man overboard drill. The look on his face as I did a back roll over the transom was a peach.

Note to self: make sure I do this well out of sight of any forum members in the future.