SafeTrx from the RYA

[RobbieW]

I also had a look around in the Google store for other instances of SafeTrx implementations. The obvious one that came up was called KNRM Helps, so customised by the Dutch rescue service. The download and scoring shows an interesting contrast: KNRM, 10000+ downloads, 76Mb and a score of 4.1; RYA 1000+ downloads, 35Mb and score of 2.8. Whilst appreciating that downloads dont necessarily equate to usage, I wonder what the RYA could learn from the KNRM ?

 

[ShinyShoe]

I also had a look around in the Google store for other instances of SafeTrx implementations. The obvious on that came up was called KNRM Help, so customised by the Dutch rescue service. The download and scoring shows an interesting contrast: KNRM, 10000+ downloads, 76Mb and a score of 4.1; RYA 1000+ downloads, 35Mb and score of 2.8. I wonder what the RYA could learn from the KNRM ?

If it is the same app with different badges then the questions are:
- Why the fatter download (is there mapping being downloaded in the map, or more extra data for marina contacts etc?)
- Why KNRM has more downloads (we have more sea and more people I believe)
- When did each start being available (RYA was early with it - do the scores include early low scores?)

There will be factors associated with marketing and expectations. There will also be cell phone coverage differences that are beyond the RYAs control.

Are "Brits" (who can be bothered to rate things) more critical of things than the Dutch?

I downloaded Safetrx when it first appeared in the App Store. One drawback is it drains your phone battery alarmingly fast. Reason? 1) When sailing your phone will, in all probability, be using a lot of power just to maintain contact with the nearest phone mast. 2) It requires Location Services and therefore gps to be ‘on’. Turning location services ‘off’ is recommended as the best way to prolong battery life.
This app really requires the phone to be on charge at all times.

Yes - it needs a smart "low drain" function... ... Oh hang on - it actually has some functions:
http://www.rya.org.uk/youraccount/Pages/RYASafetrxApp.aspx (See what happens if my battery runs low)

Does it switch off location svcs if not logging?

It does need to be battery friendly. There are uses for Dinghy Cruisers, Canoers etc who wouldn't have access to mains battery and so also wouldn't be AIS candidates...

Only one quibble with that, I dont believe you have to be a member of the RYA to register on thier website. Thus one should be able to use the app without membership but you do have to create that login

There used to be a function that was member only - but can't see anything listed anymore.

 

[laika]

Only one quibble with that, I dont believe you have to be a member of the RYA to register on thier website. Thus one should be able to use the app without membership but you do have to create that login

I acknowledge that I could be completely mistaken. When the RYA first announced availability of SafeTRX my understanding, which may have been incorrect, was that they had bought a licence for all members as a "benefit". Maybe the RYA pay nothing and generally availability is used as a marketing tool for paid services like flotilla tracking. Or maybe it used to be paid for but now isn't. "Free" is certainly price you can't complain about.

 

[prv]

Only one quibble with that, I dont believe you have to be a member of the RYA to register on thier website.

I think Laika's point is that he's a member anyway, and objects to the small fraction of his membership fee being spent by the RYA on licensing this service.

Doesn't seem that big a deal to me since the cost is presumably negligible alongside lots of other things they do that are even less relevant to him, particularly on the racing side of the organisation.

Pete

 

[ShinyShoe]

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong but this isn't developed by people in their spare time for the common good: a company is flogging the app and use of the servers to the RYA on an ongoing basis for a profit.

Correct - the RYA pays an annual licence fee.

I'm an RYA member. I am not a technophobe but I don't need/want this app.

But the RYA presumably offers other services / functions that you might not want.

Single Adult Membership costs £45 per year, with Subscriptions bringing about 4.7m in income.

I can't see any obvious line in the accounts that describes what they are paying as a licence fee. If it was £47k (that would be expensive IMHO), they could in theory reduce your Adult Membership to £44.55...

...What extra does the app give? Tracking by smartphone for those without AIS but I suspect there are any number of other ways to achieve that.

In principle - nothing. It is only a tool. But it does bring together various things in one place. You could install BoatBeacon and create a virtual AIS, but it doesn't text your relatives. The app has a quick "dial 999" function - clearly the actual act of dialing 999 isn't hard. But the app then sends an update to the CG console with your position. (Not aware of any other way you can do that by phone. You can register to SMS to 999 - and if you did - you can get an app that will SMS your position as an emergency message... but I suspect that goes to the 999 operator not the CG). Clearly the big red button on my VHF does that rather more effectively by sharing with everyone in range.

The app will send you alerts before you go overdue to ask you to revise your ETA. Probably not unique, but built into the one system?

I would prefer the membership fee to be lower so I could choose how to allocate my own safety budget.

Based on my assumption that it would lower the fee <1%, then over the next 30 years you'd save enough to buy a single parachute flare with a 3 year expiry date!

In the 3(?) years it's been going is there any record of someone's life being saved that wouldn't have been had they simply used the manual process correctly?

I suspect that's impossible to prove.

Firstly - because we will end up in the "how do you define life saved".... ...do you need to be moments from death or would loosing power and drifting count?

Secondly - because unless you ran a randomised trial where 100,000 sailors use the app (?and nothing else) and 100,000 use traditional methods - you wont know if one is more effective. Add to that you now want the traditional methods to be used correctly...

But you would expect that someone could produce some stats that say:

* How many 999 calls were initiated from the App? (I'd be happy to accept they were all emergencies of some description, and perhaps because the App was used and send a more reliable position less of my taxpayer or RNLI charity donation was needed to fund the assistance.)

* How many 30minute overdue SMSs were sent? (Doesn't mean they were in danger)

* How many of those 30minute overdue SMSs result in a CG call? Again may not mean anything in terms of lives saved, but if the manual process was followed the same result should have happened...

 

[laika]

Doesn't seem that big a deal to me since the cost is presumably negligible alongside lots of other things they do that are even less relevant to him, particularly on the racing side of the organisation.

Not quite the point (though I understand why you think so given my poor choice of phrasing). I should have said that I would have preferred the money spent somewhere it would have been more beneficial to members (not necessarily me). We've established in other threads that you don't join the RYA out of self-interest and I'm happy that many (most?) RYA resource spending is not relevant to me. However SafeTRX is presumably more relevant to me than it is to most other members but I wouldn't personally spend money on it and I would much rather they get good value for money in a different area that benefits me not at all (e.g. grants to a couple of clubs to make accessibility modifications to a dinghy?). Some experience with seeing acquaintances in startups exploiting buyers in non-profit organisations who aren't necessarily doing a full cost-benefit on their purchases has possibly made me cynical. All this is irrelevant though if no money ever changed hands.

 

[[70521]]

But the difference with this and AIS is that it prompts someone to do something. AIS is passive. Yes - @Sandy's experience is that people watch him anchoring up or entering harbour so when he calls they say "We know". I'm not convinced everyone's shore contact is that good. If they are AIS will do the same job. If they aren't then the system contacting them is the special feature.

While AIS is passive Marine Traffic can be active if you have a "fleet" and get notification when one of the fleet leave or enter a port.

Home contacts should be carefully selected as they do need to be relied on to dial 999 if you are overdue. A tracking device gives them a bit more information.

 

[ShinyShoe]

While AIS is passive Marine Traffic can be active if you have a "fleet" and get notification when one of the fleet leave or enter a port.

Home contacts should be carefully selected as they do need to be relied on to dial 999 if you are overdue. A tracking device gives them a bit more information.

Notification on MarineTraffic is limited unless ££

Notification is also the "wrong" way round - shore contact gets notified I'm safe (if worried they can login). They don't get notified that I'm not back.

Completely agree - shore contact selection is critical.

For someone who sails 10 weekends a year, with same crew. Calling home no major headache.

Do people who go out 3-4 times a week, with different folks and maybe change plans lots get more complacent? Might be known to be overdue but where were they going and POB?

 

[[70521]]

Notification on MarineTraffic is limited unless ££

That is not our experience.

Notification is also the "wrong" way round - shore contact gets notified I'm safe (if worried they can login). They don't get notified that I'm not back.

I don't quite follow the logic here. I give my destination and ETA. If they get an e-mail to say I have arrived +/- 1 hour from my ETA followed up by a phone call then I've checked in. If I am in range of a mast and going to be later I can ping them a text. They can monitor my progress on Marine Traffic for free if they want - and can text if they want.

Completely agree - shore contact selection is critical.

:encouragement:

For someone who sails 10 weekends a year, with same crew. Calling home no major headache.

Do people who go out 3-4 times a week, with different folks and maybe change plans lots get more complacent? Might be known to be overdue but where were they going and POB?

Again not a problem with a text, destination, ETA and who I am sailing with. If a change of plan say we decide that the weather is not good for a trip to X and we are going to Y then sent a text and as soon as the mobile picks up a signal it is sent. We have an agreement that all messages are acknowledged.

In effect we are doing what the App does all it is doing is pulling the data into one place. I do like the Inshore Forecast screen - I get mine emailed when it has been issued so usually have access to the most recent Shipping and Inshore Forecast.

 

[prv]

Some experience with seeing acquaintances in startups exploiting buyers in non-profit organisations who aren't necessarily doing a full cost-benefit on their purchases has possibly made me cynical.

Hah - I know what you mean. Not so much from the selling side, but I’ve certainly seen people spend far too much money on mediocre tech that could be done far better for less, because they don’t understand what they’re buying or what they actually need.

(No comment on whether this applies to this RYA app, I haven’t looked at it.)

Pete

 

[ShinyShoe]

Notification on MarineTraffic is limited unless ££

That is not our experience.

The free option sends 30 emails per month. It may well depend on your passage type - but I've seen a boat leave a "marina", go to the "fuel barge" return to the "marina" and trigger arrival and departure emails. So the guy pottering in the Solent, nipping from Portsmouth, anchoring for lunch and the heading to Cowes for afternoon tea, and back to Portsmouth might trigger Depart P'mouth, Arrive Anchor, Depart Anchor, Arrive Cowes, Depart Cowes, Arrive Porstmouth. So 6 emails without any 'oddities' of fuel barges or even GPS inaccuracy that I've seen but someone back in harbour to then leave again seconds later!

I don't quite follow the logic here. I give my destination and ETA. If they get an e-mail to say I have arrived +/- 1 hour from my ETA followed up by a phone call then I've checked in. If I am in range of a mast and going to be later I can ping them a text. They can monitor my progress on Marine Traffic for free if they want - and can text if they want.

I'm not saying your approach is wrong. I'm saying the App runs the otherway round. It actively tells your shore contact you are overdue, rather than actively telling them you arrived. I think this might be generational! I'm guessing you'll be from a generation where if you travelled back to uni from your parents as a student you called home by giving 2 rings and hanging up. The new generation send a WhatsApp message to the Family Group and probably CheckIn on BookFace. So you've grown up in a world where someone was actively awaiting your information you'd arrived. I'm far less convinced the new generation actually expect anyone to be actively checking they arrived... ...so they may need to be prompted that you didn't arrive rather than be told you did...

Again not a problem with a text, destination, ETA and who I am sailing with. If a change of plan say we decide that the weather is not good for a trip to X and we are going to Y then sent a text and as soon as the mobile picks up a signal it is sent. We have an agreement that all messages are acknowledged.

Which I guess works well if your shore contact knows about stuff.
My shore contact would normally be my Brother. But there is a possibility he might sail with me. That means the shore contact is my parents... or inlaws. The more specific you are with them about the level of "support" you want they more likely they will flap!

In effect we are doing what the App does all it is doing is pulling the data into one place.

Yes! But I suspect there are plenty not doing what you do. The app is for those who don't have a good setup! The guy who leaves in the morning saying to the wife "Me and Jim are off to the boat, might head out to XXX for a bit" but leaves no plan beyond that. 12hours later she thinks "Its dark, hes normally home by now." She calls his mobile. No answer. She calls Jim - he never went out in the end, but there was another guy called Dave had said he might be meeting up too... ...Jim doesnt know how to contact Dave. Neither does the wife. Wife doesn't know what to do next or who else to call.

 

[laika]

Back pedalling a little...without someone who knows to state what the RYA's objective was in purchasing this, whether that objective is being realised and how much it is costing, comments such as my earlier one are based on possibly incorrect assumptions. I guessed it was purchased in the belief that it would benefit people like me because the process of logging a passage plan with a shore contact is relevant to to the type of sailing I sometimes do. My reaction was negative because it looks to me like technology for technology's sake, adding negligible value to the existing process.

However perhaps it was purchased in the belief that "gamification" of the process through an app might encourage those who wouldn't otherwise have logged a passage plan with a shore contact to do so. Are there people who would enter their passage plan into an app who would never have thought to email instructions to a reliable friend? My guess would be "not many" but I totally accept that I might be wrong.

Sandy says he'll try the app. Is anyone here already using it regularly and if so, did you previously log a passage plan with a shore contact but you find this way easier or has the app started a new habit?

 

[maby]

...
Sandy says he'll try the app. Is anyone here already using it regularly and if so, did you previously log a passage plan with a shore contact but you find this way easier or has the app started a new habit?

I do use it when we set out on a long passage, but that is pretty rare. In the past, I have filed a passage plan with the coastguard, but although they accept it with good grace, I have never been convinced that they particularly welcome it.

 

[[70521]]

The free option sends 30 emails per month. It may well depend on your passage type - but I've seen a boat leave a "marina", go to the "fuel barge" return to the "marina" and trigger arrival and departure emails. So the guy pottering in the Solent, nipping from Portsmouth, anchoring for lunch and the heading to Cowes for afternoon tea, and back to Portsmouth might trigger Depart P'mouth, Arrive Anchor, Depart Anchor, Arrive Cowes, Depart Cowes, Arrive Porstmouth. So 6 emails without any 'oddities' of fuel barges or even GPS inaccuracy that I've seen but someone back in harbour to then leave again seconds later!

Ahh, I now understand your point. I sail out of the West Country, therefore don't have as many "ports" to ping as I go past . A typical weekend I might ping four e-mails, depart home port, arrive visiting port, depart visiting port, arrive home port. On longer trips passages can be up to 48 hours. If I am faffing about in my home port I switch AIS off as it is not needed - home contact is aware what we are doing.

Which I guess works well if your shore contact knows about stuff.
My shore contact would normally be my Brother. But there is a possibility he might sail with me. That means the shore contact is my parents... or inlaws. The more specific you are with them about the level of "support" you want they more likely they will flap!

I'm lucky in that case, the whole family have either mountaineered or sailed and know the score.

Yes! But I suspect there are plenty not doing what you do. The app is for those who don't have a good setup! The guy who leaves in the morning saying to the wife "Me and Jim are off to the boat, might head out to XXX for a bit" but leaves no plan beyond that. 12hours later she thinks "Its dark, hes normally home by now." She calls his mobile. No answer. She calls Jim - he never went out in the end, but there was another guy called Dave had said he might be meeting up too... ...Jim doesnt know how to contact Dave. Neither does the wife. Wife doesn't know what to do next or who else to call.

That is just poor communication by the skipper with the home contact. I'd suggest that they were only allowed out again with a responsible adult.

 

[franksingleton]

I can see the point of this app for areas such as the Solent. If even 10% of boats called the CG with a passage plan the system would not cope. The app makes it easy to ensure that someone sensible knows what you are doing.

For passage making, cross Channel or for our coastal passages, 30 - 60 miles, typically, the security afforded by AIS is hard to beat. Last year on passage Lezardrieux to St Peter Port, we got ourselves in a F8/9. No great worry as the direction was a very broad reach and once going up the Guernsey coast we would be sheltered. However, it was reassuring to call the Guernsey CG, give them our MMSI and be told that they could see us and keep an eye on our progress. Perhaps because, we are rather elderly, our family members do monitor our progress when we are on our extended summer cruise.

 

[laika]

II have filed a passage plan with the coastguard, but although they accept it with good grace, I have never been convinced that they particularly welcome it.

If even 10% of boats called the CG with a passage plan the system would not cope.

It occurs to me that although I was talking about "the manual method", although I'm sure many people have adopted the same approach, it's a process of my own devising rather than one which was taught. On RYA courses I was "taught" to log routine traffic on the coastguard's working channel. My instructor was frankly not that good, overlooking DSC, incorrectly emphasising the importance of calling up the coastguard on completion of the voyage to avoid an SAR operation, and completely omitting any reference to shore contacts.

Logging a passage plan doesn't prompt an SAR operation on late arrival. It helps to locate you should your shore contact report you overdue. Although I leave this open to debate, there's not necessarily a need to log your passage plan with the coastguard so long as your shore contact has the ability to communicate it accurately (or forward the email you sent them with the details). A CG66 avoids repeating the unchanging info each time.

My manual process is analogous to what SafeTRX does. Confirm with shore contact that they're happy to act as shore contact for the trip, email them the passage plan, what number to call and when if they don't hear back form me and can't contact any of the crew by mobile, and a script of what to say. I have a CG66 logged.

So no need to overload the coastguard unless there's a problem. Normally my AIS stays off except when crossing traffic but I could turn it on if I wanted tracking info.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Additional info here: http://www.safetrxapp.com/

Daughter #3 reckons this could be usefull when she goes hillwalking / Munro bagging.

 

[[70521]]

I have a CG66 logged.

I've not heard anything from the CG about the upgrade to the system then promised about a year ago.

 

[Yealm]

I think there is one important question which isn’t answered in the FAQs.

If my phone is dead or out of range, do my emergency contacts get contacted if im beyond my ETA?

ie is it server based or phone based?

 

[[70521]]

The application is server based, you can access the data from the internet.

Personally, I am not using the tracking on the phone, but doing my usual call home when we arrive at a destination. We do transmit on AIS so family and friends can see where we are during our voyage.