Sadler 32 watermota engine starting problem

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LongJohn

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I have recently purchased a 1979 Sadler 32 with the original SeaPanther engine and am having real problems with starting. I have an 85Ah starter battery and 2 x 90Ah services batteries. with just the starter battery the engine barely turns over and with all 3 batteries it doesn't really turn over fast enough to start even with all batteries fully charged. if it does start it runs ok so I don't think there is a fundamental problem with the engine itself. Could this be a starter motor fault or perhaps some sort of electical fault?
 
Measure the voltage at the battery when cranking the engine. If it falls from 12.6 (full charge) to 9 or so, the battery isn't man enough for the job.
If the battery voltage doesn't drop much, measure at the starter motor (neg to the bolts at the motor, pos to the connector on the solenoid output.
If the voltage is significantly lower while cranking, you have a poor connection or under-rated cable, or bad solenoid.
If the voltage doesn't drop much at the motor, but cranking is still "lazy", put your palm over the air intake (you may have to remove an air cleaner first) to stop the engine drawing air. It should then speed up fast enough to start when you whip your hand away. The starter probably could do with a new set of brushes if it's original.
 
IIRC the SeaPanther was difficult to start and was fitted with a 24 volt battery powering a 12 volt starter motor to overcome this.

Possibly changed on later models.
 
thanks guys. a 24v battery sounds a pretty drastic solution - must make the charging setup pretty tricky. I'll try your suggestions when I'm next down Billjrat.
 
I have exactly that: 24V on a 12V starter motor.

It was done on ealier engines where the original starting system was not capable of turning the engine sufficiently. The Sea Panther is a Ford Kent crossflow block which was designed as a petrol engine. The bottom end is bullet proof & so made a great block for conversion to diesel & marinising. But with the compression ratio doubled, the original 12V starter wasn't capable so the easy fix was to put 24V on it & specify it for limited engagement. i.e. if you can't start after a few seconds, leave it to cool.

Starting has never been a problem on my boat (apart from when I had a blocked filter). BUT, & this is a big BUT, the reliability of the starter motor is seriously affected. Since I've had the boat, I have regularly replaced the starter motor every year. The cost of £30-£40 from the motor factor was worth it. I just found at the start of last year that the cost has rocketed since they are not being refurbished. I'm almost certain that the brushes burn out & these are chaep to buy so should be easy to replace.

If anyone knows of a longer term solution like anyone that would do a rewind to make the original mechanics turn over the engine better on 12V, I'd be interested to find out.
 
thanks wooslehunter. if anyone has any further thoughts on the starter motor issue or any other suggestions please let me know.
 
wooslehunter said:
I have exactly that: 24V on a 12V starter motor.

It was done on ealier engines where the original starting system was not capable of turning the engine sufficiently. The Sea Panther is a Ford Kent crossflow block which was designed as a petrol engine. The bottom end is bullet proof & so made a great block for conversion to diesel & marinising. But with the compression ratio doubled, the original 12V starter wasn't capable so the easy fix was to put 24V on it & specify it for limited engagement. i.e. if you can't start after a few seconds, leave it to cool.

Starting has never been a problem on my boat (apart from when I had a blocked filter). BUT, & this is a big BUT, the reliability of the starter motor is seriously affected. Since I've had the boat, I have regularly replaced the starter motor every year. The cost of £30-£40 from the motor factor was worth it. I just found at the start of last year that the cost has rocketed since they are not being refurbished. I'm almost certain that the brushes burn out & these are chaep to buy so should be easy to replace.

If anyone knows of a longer term solution like anyone that would do a rewind to make the original mechanics turn over the engine better on 12V, I'd be interested to find out.
Click to expand...

As most Ford parts are interchangable could you not fit a diesel escort starter? you may have to change the flywheel but it would be worth it.
 
I had exactly the same issue on my 79 sadler. Firstly I made sure the battery was man enough and the cable connections were sound. Then I had the starter regularly serviced to help the problem. Mine also had a glow plug on the air intake which I could see glow red, the engine would never start from cold without the plug working
 
Mine has a diesel pre-heater that I have been told I should use until a ring of smoke is produced. Does that match with anyone else.
 
I too used to hold the cold start until smoke appeared at the air filter and it always started very reliably, 12 volt batteries too. Unfortunately age caught up and the high pessure fuel pump died causing all sorts of problems...Hello Mr Yanmar..:D Sea Panther long since gone to be razor blades so unable to help with spare I'm afraid.:(..
006-9.jpg
 
LongJohn said:
Mine has a diesel pre-heater that I have been told I should use until a ring of smoke is produced. Does that match with anyone else.
Click to expand...

That is probably the same as mine was, I found the engine to be very reliable once I had sorted the starting electrics and very smooth running compared to the later Volvo and Bukh twins that were fitted.
 
I have a '79 Sea Panther: very reliable (about 5000 hours so far, fingers crossed). 12-volt system, using 126ah batteries. You are using the pre-heat, I hope? 20-25 secs (at about 10 amps discharge) then it should start with less than 5 secs cranking. If no start, try another 10 secs of heat. If still no start (very rare), give it a minute or two and try again.
 
starter motor details

I have another question. I want to purchase a new starter motor for the Seapanther engine to try in place of the existing starter. I have 2 copies of the Watermota Seapanther manual - one that I obtained with the Sadler 32 and the other downloaded from the internet. One says that the starter motor is a Ford 71AB-11001-AA but the other has a note in the starter motor section of the manual that "the starter is not standard Lucas, the pinion and fixings being altered".

Can anyone tell me whether the standard 71AB-11001-AA (Lucas 25248 according to the internet) fits or not please. If not then what modifications are needed or alternatively where can I obtain a starter that will fit?
 
LongJohn said:
I have recently purchased a 1979 Sadler 32 with the original SeaPanther engine and am having real problems with starting. I have an 85Ah starter battery and 2 x 90Ah services batteries. with just the starter battery the engine barely turns over and with all 3 batteries it doesn't really turn over fast enough to start even with all batteries fully charged. if it does start it runs ok so I don't think there is a fundamental problem with the engine itself. Could this be a starter motor fault or perhaps some sort of electical fault?
Click to expand...

my previous boat a contessa 34 had one.

Due to the engine being a converted petrol the compression ratio is at the low end of the spectrum for a diesel. This means, to get it going you need to have your battery, starter and wiring in A1 condition. Also it needs the thermo start every time even when warm.

1)electrics:

it goes without saying your battery must be in good order. It should be possible to start the engine just fine with only one battery. You will need to mount the battery as close to the engine as possible and use oversize wiring. Litterally get the biggest cable you can, I used lorry starter cable of huge x sectional area.

2)Thermostart. These are often broken or wired incorrectly. If its wired through a keyswitch then disconnect it and fit it with its own manual push button.

then to start:

push thermostart on and wait a long while - say 20 seconds or more. then, crank the engine whilst keeping the thermo start on.

If you do all this without the air filter on you will see why. after about 20 seconds the thermostart gets hot enough to ignite the diesel, you then have a 24" flame coming out of your air intake. at this time keeping the power on the thermostart ensures this flame is sustained. you then crank your engine nice and fast with the short wiring run and she will draw in that flame and fire instantly.

its actually a very reliable and quick starter once you ge tthe hang of it.
my boat was wired with the thermostart on the key when I got it. by the time you are cranking the engine the voltage is not enough to ignite the diesel and its useless. this is not the correct wiring but belive it or not lots of yachts were supplied this way from new.

so in summary, shorten your wiring run. take your airfilter of and check you can make a flame with thermostart.

finally, they are prone to overheating and leaking oil.

oil leaks can never be stopped so dont wast your time.
most poeple take the thermostat out and that solves the overheating problems.
 
When you talk about the thermostart is this what I think of as the pre-heater? On my boat there is a button to press which after a while results in a ring of smoke coming out of what I assume is the air filter (a flat round attachment on the top of the engine). Do I basically need to keep the button pressed until I can see flames in the filter?

The other problem is whether the battery is ever turning the engine over fast enough to start it anyway. I'm not familiar with diesel engines so don't really know how fast they should turn while starting but mine seems very slow.

I thought that I would do two things next. first, replace the starter motor in case there is a fault with the existing one. Next, try running a cable directly from the battery to the starter motor to exclude all of the existing wiring.

I've not had any feedback regarding the required starter motor model. Any ideas please?
 
LongJohn said:
I've not had any feedback regarding the required starter motor model. Any ideas please?
Click to expand...
The photo on Downsman's post shows what looks like a pre-engaged starter and the flywheel housing is not a Ford part. From memory earlier engines of that type had inertia starters with two bolt fixing - which moved and jammed. Later ones were three bolt fixing. The 71 in the Ford part number suggests a later one (1971 on) as the engine was introduced in 1967.

Suggest you take the existing motor to a specialist who will be able to identify it.
 
LongJohn said:
When you talk about the thermostart is this what I think of as the pre-heater? On my boat there is a button to press which after a while results in a ring of smoke coming out of what I assume is the air filter (a flat round attachment on the top of the engine). Do I basically need to keep the button pressed until I can see flames in the filter?

The other problem is whether the battery is ever turning the engine over fast enough to start it anyway. I'm not familiar with diesel engines so don't really know how fast they should turn while starting but mine seems very slow.

I thought that I would do two things next. first, replace the starter motor in case there is a fault with the existing one. Next, try running a cable directly from the battery to the starter motor to exclude all of the existing wiring.

I've not had any feedback regarding the required starter motor model. Any ideas please?
Click to expand...

if you have a seperate button for the thermostart thats good.

1)take the air filter housing off, press and hold your thermostart in. you should get flames after say 20-30 seconds. If not then either the thermostart is dud or its wiring is not adequate and like your starter motor the voltage drop is preventing it from working properly.

once you can achieve flames in the air intake, try cranking your engine WHILE HOLDING THE THERMOSTART ON until she fires.

she will either fire up imediatly - problem solved. or still be reluctant.
if its the latter try placing your starter battery right next (or as close as practical) to you starter motor. Even a temporary set up with car jump leads. Note how the cranking speed compares to before. If thats better then you will need to permanently reloce your starter battery or just keep it where it is but get wire of huge cross ssectional area.

If its still cranking slowly, I would eliminate your battery before replacing the starter motor. I have seen the starter gear fail butnever known a starter motor to work slowly. \it will most likely work okay or be burned out. not partial failure.

re: how fast it should crank, I would say ' a little slower than your car' that motor is working hard - it was designed for a petrol engine.

if your engine is still reluctant to start with a fireball in the inlet manifold and good wiring I would say its time for a rebuild.
 
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