Sabre 27 handling astern

DoubleEnder

DoubleEnder

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My boat has a full length keel. We don’t really do astern, though we have a variety of sideways options and some interesting surprises to keep the relationship fresh.
I have little experience of marinas but am currently in Ramsgate (nice, though a bit exposed in strong SW wind) and I am very impressed by the way the modern boats can be driven backwards so tidily. It’s wonderful to see.
I am curious about a Sabre 27 for various reasons. Do they also go backwards so predictably and usefully? Anyone here have experience?
 
Not of a Sabre 27 but of an Invicta26 which has a similar underwater profile.
Anticipation is the key. You can stop her by ‘slamming’ in reverse, but to get some meaningful direction, slow down your forward travel, put in in reverse and wait, slowly she will react and then gentle movements on the tiller should guide her in the reverse direction you want. Won’t ever be as responsive as a fin keeler but can be manoeuvred in reverse.
 
Hi

I have a Sabre 27 fin keel, which can be steered astern but you do need to keep the speed up and pay VERY close attention!
It also helps to have a propeller that doesn't give a lot of prop wash to push you round. Add a crosswind then it becomes more problematic.
I am told by bilge keel Sabre owners that steering astern is "interesting"

Regards
Ian
 
I had a twin keel Tomahawk, a sibling of the Sabre. I recall that it wasn't brilliant doing astern and the bow blew off downwind very readily. I put it down to the relatively large skeg. It wasn't my fault:nonchalance:
 
We had a Sabre 27 for 4 years and in reverse, well... engage reverse and toss a coin as to which way it would go!

Loved the boat though and wish we still had it.
 
Had a Sabre for over a decade.

Apart from pulling absolutely reliably to port with prop walk when going forwards, starting from stationery, to try to reverse, was as stated, a bit of a lottery.

One time I put it in reverse from standing still, held the rudder in the centre and then watched in amazement as the boat made a rather nice 'S' track all without a tiller adjustment.

Brilliant boat however, just get used to it. Very reliable and tracks forwards beautifully even at really low speeds.
 
I have a Sabre that steers backwards with precision! Sabre 426, Fin keel, big rudder, Maxprop. But it is an American Sabre, made in Maine and absolutely no relation to the UK Sabres. Sorry guys.
 
I am still very much learning and providing entertainment/consternation to my neighbouring boats' crews, but having spent a few years with a several long keeled boats I'd suggest the main thing is to get into ones head that pointing the tiller is only one of the factors (and often a minor one) affecting the direction you are going to end up going:
- wind will tend to turn the boat bow downwind (and hence wind speed and direction are critical);
- prop walk will tend to pull the boat (depending on which way the prop spins) in one direction or the other (by an amount that will depend on (a) the boat, (b) how fast you are spinning the prop and (c) how long for (it takes a while for the turbulence when prop starts spinning to settle into a regular flow)); and
- how fast you are going and how regular the flow of water is across the rudder (more important to have a steady flow than vast amounts of speed, but that does take time and distance to build up).

The art is to be able to gauge what the boat will want to do with the wind and other factors mentioned above. You should then avoid, if possible, anything that is completely contrary to that; choose an option (if available) as close as possible to it (which may involve a three-quarter (270 degree) turn the way the boat will go, rather than a quarter (90 degree) turn the way it won't); and then use the rudder and engine to provide (as best you can) the input to make the difference between what the boat wants to do and what you need it to do.

If it all starts going wrong (as it will from time to time), try holding the boat stationary (which may require a bit of engine, possibly in and out of gear, in order to stop being blown on what is to leeward, while you try to think through how you can extricate yourself, bearing in mind the above factors.

Note that the Sabre does not have a full length keel (fin and bike keel options only, as far as I am aware), and has a separate rudder (i.e. not mounted on the back of the keel), so in theory should be less challenging than a long keeler, but the same principles would apply.
 
No-one seems to have mentioned that a crucial part of astern handling is the technique for shifting the stern sideways (either way) :
1. start from going astern, not in right direction
2. into neutral
3. put the helm hard over
4. give a short really sharp burst of ahead power; back end of boat will slide sideways, very little forward movement
5. straighten helm
6. gentle throttle astern again.
 
For goodness sake, the Sabre is not a large boat boat by modern standards. It will obey the laws of physics and although I haven't sailed one, I have handled many similar boats, and they are invariably handy enough. True, they are smaller and lighter, and will be blown off course more quickly by the wind, but manoeuvring a boat like this is basic seamanship. The last two posts have summed almost everything necessary to control such a boat. There is no such thing as aboat that won't go astern. There are particular problems associated with boats with twin rudders, or long keels with a prop in a hole that never acts on the rudder, but we need to remember that we are not fighting the boat but out to enjoy ourselves.
 
ianfr said:
Hi

I have a Sabre 27 fin keel, which can be steered astern but you do need to keep the speed up and pay VERY close attention!
It also helps to have a propeller that doesn't give a lot of prop wash to push you round. Add a crosswind then it becomes more problematic.
I am told by bilge keel Sabre owners that steering astern is "interesting"

Regards
Ian
Click to expand...

But an Albin Vega is much more "interesting" with the prop abaft the rudder
 
Resolution said:
No-one seems to have mentioned that a crucial part of astern handling is the technique for shifting the stern sideways (either way) :
1. start from going astern, not in right direction
2. into neutral
3. put the helm hard over
4. give a short really sharp burst of ahead power; back end of boat will slide sideways, very little forward movement
5. straighten helm
6. gentle throttle astern again.
Click to expand...

Yes, I forgot to mention that - a good one. Short, sharp, hard burst of ahead, I'd say.

But to be used judiciously, I think, because each time that is done you lose the steady flow which has built up over the rudder (and hull), and you have to start again to build it.
 
johnalison said:
For goodness sake, the Sabre is not a large boat boat by modern standards. It will obey the laws of physics and although I haven't sailed one, I have handled many similar boats, and they are invariably handy enough. True, they are smaller and lighter, and will be blown off course more quickly by the wind, but manoeuvring a boat like this is basic seamanship. The last two posts have summed almost everything necessary to control such a boat. There is no such thing as aboat that won't go astern.
Click to expand...

Utter bollox I am afraid.

I have owned an Albin Vega for 15 years and done maybe 25,000 miles in her and I still have no idea what she is going to do when I go astern. Wind, tide, propwalk and the judicious use of warps are all your friends, but there is nothing to learn - she is simply not good at going astern.

The good news it, of those 25,000 miles maybe 5 have been done going astern.

- W
 
Sabre fin keel will go astern but may need a bit of fwd throttle here & there to get it pointing in the right direction. Having only recently fitted a furling jib i was surprised how much the rolled up genoa affected the handling under power, the furled sail has a lot of windage.
The worst boat i ever drove under power was a large ex RNLI lifeboat, double ended type with both props in tunnels, trying to get that to handle astern was dificult to say the least!
 
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Big or small they all go backwards and under reasonable control IF AND ONLY IF the stern is going towards the wind. The hydrodynamics for this can be easily explained, and there are plenty of places that can explain it. In a nutshell going forward the steering axis is about 1/3 from the stem. As soon as you go astern the axis moves to the stern post, so the hull forward of this is weather cocked by the wind.

Having two rather than one keel complicates things, but the principle is generally true.

It is harder in a Mobo with tiny rudders and no prop wash to amplify their effect when running the wrong way.

I would add having owned a Sabre 27 and now a twin shaft mobo, and several others in between, all work to this same principle.
 
We've got a 27" long keeler - and rarely try and do anything meaningful astern. If it's flat calm, no tide, no wind and everyone stands still - it will gently respond to the tiller once the prop wash effect is allowed for. But the last several times, just trying to set the anchor, so no precision required, has been "interesting", going every which way. Haven't tried a sharp burst forward, which I think would work well! Thanks for the tip....:rolleyes:
 
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