Sète's new lifeboat

[fisherman]

Of course the French boats are not so well equipped, the crews not so well trained, and the UK has a vastly longer coastline, which for the RNLI includes Ireland.....
Would it be safer in Government hands where spending would be monitored? (hahaha)
......but apart from all that I would repeatedly ask sybarite as in #79: what would you have happen? Carping about it in here is at least ineffectual. Even if we all agree with you that the RNLI is too profligate, so what? And by that I mean, so.....WHAT?

 

[Sybarite]

in post 2 you talk of a new 58 ft lifeboat, are we talking of another new lifeboat 3ft longer?

In the tech docs it was mentioned that the CTT was 17m80 or 58'. In the video the boss of Sibiril said that this boat was 18m60. Or 61'.

 

[rotrax]

In the tech docs it was mentioned that the CTT was 17m80 or 58'. In the video the boss of Sibiril said that this boat was 18m60. Or 61'.

I said I was done here, but I cant resist! When I had a little to do with high tech racing engines plus or minus tolerances were starting to be measured in microns.

We used to say that by comparison the plus or minus tolerance at a shipyard was one ship-seems the French shipyards are going that way...........................

 

[Sybarite]

Of course the French boats are not so well equipped, the crews not so well trained, [/QOUTE]

B***S*** !

and the UK has a vastly longer coastline, which for the RNLI includes Ireland.....

The French have a higher density of boats and a longer effective season.

 

[chanelyacht]

If there was a vote as to the population of the UK being happy with having their waterbourne SAR service carried out by one major and many smaller charities I am pretty sure how the vote would go.

That's exactly the UK situation - much as the RNLI would like to hide the fact, they are far from the only service provider.

 

[chanelyacht]

in post 2 you talk of a new 58 ft lifeboat, are we talking of another new lifeboat 3ft longer?

France has higher inflation than the UK.

Of course, were the level of systems and equipment comparable, the question would be valid. But they aren't.

 

[chanelyacht]

My friend went to a point six miles from the area where two divers had been searched for over six hours and found them on his first sweep. (Channelyacht may be able to enlighten us, Train Wreck, august 2008) Although they wanted to return to Hayle where their car and people were, the CG insisted on transfer to the St Ives LB, who came alongside and had to be told to 'go away' as there was too much sea running. The transfer took place just off the pierhead, where they were landed to face the panoply of cameras after their ordeal. Much embarrassment all round, the divers admitted the best dive master was in the water, and was ex SAR, he gave no credit to the SAR at all, only to the fisherman who worked out exactly where to go. Rumour was the CG had no one to work the tide computation, but can hardly believe that. They were lost N of St Ives head, found off Pendeen. No one was tasked to look there. See, things can go wrong, even with the best intentions.

Sorry edit, 2007 aug 4th

I'm not familiar with that incident, not having been at Falmouth at the time - but the SARIS plot (tide and wide search pattern) doesn't ring true - even if no-one on the watch had been SARIS qualified (it happened sometimes) Brixham or Milford would have been asked to run a plot as the system is national.

Knowing the experience levels at Falmouth around that time, I find it inconceivable that there would have been no-one to run a plot.

 

[chanelyacht]

The French have a higher density of boats and a longer effective season.

Stats for that claim please, the exact opposite was frequently said to me by CROSS Corsen and Etel when I was speaking to them regularly.

 

[Sybarite]

France has higher inflation than the UK.

No it hasn't.

Of course, were the level of systems and equipment comparable, the question would be valid. But they aren't.

I tend to believe the French lb skippers who say that the new boats have state of the art equipment and as the first cox'n of the new CTT said, the design team, the architects and the builders couldn't have done better. (In 3 years rather than 13....) Already the hull designs allow a much smoother passage through the water which allows the CTT to obtain its operating speed of 25 knots with the same engines as the much smaller Shannon and at half the price.

Also, as pvb stated in post #7, the pantocarene 17m pilot boats on the East coast have enabled an £80000 pa per boat fuel saving.

 

[Sybarite]

Stats for that claim please, the exact opposite was frequently said to me by CROSS Corsen and Etel when I was speaking to them regularly.

Just take a trip around the coast and look at the frequency and size of the marinas as a starting point. Why do charter fleets tend to be based in the Med rather than around the U.K.? Charterers have an effective 4/5 month business season there compared with 2 months in the U.K.

 

[fisherman]

Of course the French boats are not so well equipped, the crews not so well trained, [/QOUTE]

B***S*** !



The French have a higher density of boats and a longer effective season.

OK, B***S*** I accept, a very considered and erudite response full of information, but.......

......still not answering the question, I'll shout this time: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN??

 

[fisherman]

I'm not familiar with that incident, not having been at Falmouth at the time - but the SARIS plot (tide and wide search pattern) doesn't ring true - even if no-one on the watch had been SARIS qualified (it happened sometimes) Brixham or Milford would have been asked to run a plot as the system is national.

Knowing the experience levels at Falmouth around that time, I find it inconceivable that there would have been no-one to run a plot.

So do I. however, they listened to the unsuccessful search going on for several hours and the crewman who had been a pro diver got very twitchy. They had a discussion and decided the divers were either dead on the bottom or alive and many miles away, which turned out to be the case. They steamed six or so miles past the SAR activity off St Ives head (wreck St Chamond), agreed to look along between the swells sideways and found the SMB in ten minutes. That's dead reckoning par excellence!

 

[Sybarite]

OK, B***S*** I accept, a very considered and erudite response full of information, but.......

......still not answering the question, I'll shout this time: WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN??

Carry out a detailed comparative study with other services to see what works and what doesn't.
Carry out joint ventures with other services to effect economies of scale.
Get rid of 90% of the top earners.
Out-source architectural and construction to established experts.
Make a donation to some other struggling life-saving organizations established in areas where there are significant numbers of British boat people.
Instill a sense of value in the organization.

That's only a start. I'm sure others, especially those who run their own businesses could contribute a lot more than me.

If I said BS above it was against the automatic assumption that everything the Brits do is the best. The more I look Into the question the more I see that it is just not true.

 

[fisherman]

Carry out a detailed comparative study with other services to see what works and what doesn't.
Carry out joint ventures with other services to effect economies of scale.
Get rid of 90% of the top earners.
Out-source architectural and construction to established experts.
Make a donation to some other struggling life-saving organizations established in areas where there are significant numbers of British boat people.
Instill a sense of value in the organization.

That's only a start. I'm sure others, especially those who run their own businesses could contribute a lot more than me.

If I said BS above it was against the automatic assumption that everything the Brits do is the best. The more I look Into the question the more I see that it is just not true.

Now we're getting somewhere........but not far in this place. At least at last you've made a positive suggestion rather than just criticising. You might even rally some support from in here, now you can take it to the world. At least start with the charity commission. Don't expect to be popular though.....

 

[dogleg]

Carry out a detailed comparative study with other services to see what works and what doesn't.
Carry out joint ventures with other services to effect economies of scale.
Get rid of 90% of the top earners.
Out-source architectural and construction to established experts.
Make a donation to some other struggling life-saving organizations established in areas where there are significant numbers of British boat people.
Instill a sense of value in the organization.

That's only a start. I'm sure others, especially those who run their own businesses could contribute a lot more than me.

If I said BS above it was against the automatic assumption that everything the Brits do is the best. The more I look Into the question the more I see that it is just not true.

the RNLI do outsource building design and construction all of which as the CC requires is put out to tender, the consulting engineers are a world leader and the company that has built many of the Tamar boathouses is also a specialist in marine construction, you might even see their work in the various flood defence schemes in the Netherlands

 

[dogleg]

It is true that a charity is not expected to sit on accumulated funds, but as a broad rule of thumb should hold a year's turnover in reserve. Given the long term nature of the RNLI and its provisions that might be a little skimpy. It is also expected to discharge its duties in its area of benefit. Accounts are submitted to the commission yearly. The Charity Commission can move in a mysterious way: a small local charity has been de registered due to non submission of accounts and lack of response to enquiries. I asked the CC could we simply ignore them in the same way and sidle off with our assets (no).
Sybarite might be seen as simply trailing his coat in here on this favourite subject, knowing there are many in here who support the RNLI without question, and he has said maybe we should think about shifting support elsewhere. That might be a good thing if we can be sure the RNLI is left with just sufficient funds to discharge its obligations without further profligacy. If we can know exactly how much that is it would be a help.
Not having a dig at Sybarite for holding this view and promoting it here, just think it's pointless. Engage the media, and good luck with that.
I know about the RNLI media machine, and it is their lifeblood.
My friend went to a point six miles from the area where two divers had been searched for over six hours and found them on his first sweep. (Channelyacht may be able to enlighten us, Train Wreck, august 2008) Although they wanted to return to Hayle where their car and people were, the CG insisted on transfer to the St Ives LB, who came alongside and had to be told to 'go away' as there was too much sea running. The transfer took place just off the pierhead, where they were landed to face the panoply of cameras after their ordeal. Much embarrassment all round, the divers admitted the best dive master was in the water, and was ex SAR, he gave no credit to the SAR at all, only to the fisherman who worked out exactly where to go. Rumour was the CG had no one to work the tide computation, but can hardly believe that. They were lost N of St Ives head, found off Pendeen. No one was tasked to look there. See, things can go wrong, even with the best intentions.
Sorry edit, 2007 aug 4th

the CG search computer system is good but not always the best, we have on more than one occasion followed our instincts successfully

 

[Sybarite]

the RNLI do outsource building design and construction all of which as the CC requires is put out to tender, the consulting engineers are a world leader and the company that has built many of the Tamar boathouses is also a specialist in marine construction, you might even see their work in the various flood defence schemes in the Netherlands

I was referring to the design and construction of the boats.

 

[dogleg]

I was referring to the design and construction of the boats.

they have evaluated commercial hulls especially for the Shannon and I think the Tamar but decided not to use them, the Tyne was designed with the imput of outside bodies and when we got our new boat the coxswain and mechanic + some crew trialled the prototype and commercial alternatives as did all stations due to receive that class of boat, this is done with all new designs. Suggestions made by crews are always sort and acted upon where feasible.

The Shannon and Tamar are primarily designed for a particular launching requirement, that some lie afloat is purely coincidental.

Making passage to the Canaries soon so I will miss all this.

 

[chanelyacht]

the CG search computer system is good but not always the best, we have on more than one occasion followed our instincts successfully

SARIS relies on Hydrographic data and Met Office data - it is superbly accurate for open water, but needs a very large caveat close inshore, especially along coasts with lots of inlets.

It's also only as good as the leeway data selected by the search planner.

The target POD (probability of detection) is run to 78%, as that represents the most efficient use of resource over time. You can increase that %age, but you either need more search assets or acceptance that you will be looking in a much smaller area., which may be at odds with the set and drift area you have for the casualty.

It is also only as good as the datum point you have.

Here's a rough idea of how it works...

 

[Sybarite]

they have evaluated commercial hulls especially for the Shannon and I think the Tamar but decided not to use them, the Tyne was designed with the imput of outside bodies and when we got our new boat the coxswain and mechanic + some crew trialled the prototype and commercial alternatives as did all stations due to receive that class of boat, this is done with all new designs. Suggestions made by crews are always sort and acted upon where feasible.

The Shannon and Tamar are primarily designed for a particular launching requirement, that some lie afloat is purely coincidental.

Making passage to the Canaries soon so I will miss all this.

The 52' Tamar is now priced at £3m (as I recently saw on an RNLI site). It requires 2000hp to reach its 25knt operating speed. The 61' French boat (£1.2m) attains that speed with 1300hp. Which would you think then has the better hull design?