Sète's new lifeboat

[Sybarite]

robertj

point taken. What is the graded pay system if say you were rescued with a engine break down or lost mast etc.?

I recently started a thread on SNSM charging which gives the breakdown.

 

[Sybarite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j97o4MTOEbw

watch at 16 secs somewhat similar to your preferred video of the Shannon

all boats are a compromise of values LB's especially because of what they do


you did not answer my question concerning the power output of the new French LB engines as to whether they were governed down from original HP Tamar engines are typically governed about 80 %


I have contacted a Shannon station for info on their engines

I don't know to what extent the SNSM may govern their engines but both organizations quote the same hp ie 2 X 650hp. If governing builds in an extra safety factor, I am sure that the French mechanics would do the same.

 

[Sybarite]

No, but you are starting quite a few and also trying to hi-jack threads that were started on other topics. Maybe if you just confined yourself to a single RNLI costs rant thread I could safely avoid that.

Good idea. Then you can continue to contribute in perfect ignorance of the facts.

 

[Mister E]

But you are not giving all the facts.

You gave a list of other organisations that also work on rescues. What is their cost to give the cover needed?
What is the cost to get the travel hoist to maybe work?
What is the cost of altering all the stations to get your cheaper stuff to fit in?

It is so easy to claim something is cheaper, but to give any credence to that claim you need to back that up with costs.
Can you do that with answers to the questions?

 

[robertj]

robertj




I recently started a thread on SNSM charging which gives the breakdown.

can you link it here as I cruise france quite alot.

 

[Sybarite]

can you link it here as I cruise france quite alot.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?487956-SNSM-tariffs-for-towing&highlight=SNSM

In many French boat insurance contracts, towing is covered.

 

[Sybarite]

But you are not giving all the facts.

You gave a list of other organisations that also work on rescues. What is their cost to give the cover needed?

As the other services already exist you are talking about an allocation of cost. What additional cost is incurred in the UK when the boats liaise with helicopter support?

What is the cost to get the travel hoist to maybe work?

I don't know; I used that as an example of thinking outside the box. However if you start from the point that a standard travel hoist of the size necessary costs around £150-200k there is scope between that level and the £1.5m for the RNLI monstrosity. And you do not have a man in the cab which is likely to be submerged in bad weather.

What is the cost of altering all the stations to get your cheaper stuff to fit in?

How much did it cost to alter the stations to accept both the tractor and trailor/boat?

We see the approach at St Davids where it was considered that the the new Tamar would not fit in through the existing boathouse doors - so - a new boathouse for £10 - £11m ...!!! Let me tell you the guy who worked on my house with a team of E. European workers would have sorted that problem in no time.

It is so easy to claim something is cheaper, but to give any credence to that claim you need to back that up with costs

.

Credence in this context can be equated to common sense. However you are still adopting the same approach as you did last year when it was clear that you were more interested in scoring points than sincerely wanting a response to your questions.

Tell me the basis on which the RNLI has allocated overhead costs and development costs to its new boats?

How many Shannons has Berthon sold to third parties?

 

[Sybarite]

Still no maximum wind speed. Why do you not know that?

How much gravel can the Shannons jets pick up before it grinds the jet to a stop?

You are not really interested in a response. However if you looked at the design in operation you could make a pretty educated guess.

What sort of wind speeds can the Shannon launch accommodate before the boat is swept off the carriage?


PS I don't really want to know either but it's a question in the same vein as yours.

 

[Mister E]

All I asking you for is the proper costs for your claims.
If you can not do so why do you keep making what are then unsubstantiated claims.
If you take asking questions that you can not or will not answer as point scoring it just shoes how weak your claims are.

You will have noticed that I have never made any claims about either organisation and will not do so.

I just want to know if things will work and the costs. If you can show those then I would agree with you.
Up until then you case is full of holes.

 

[Sybarite]

All I asking you for is the proper costs for your claims.
If you can not do so why do you keep making what are then unsubstantiated claims.
If you take asking questions that you can not or will not answer as point scoring it just shoes how weak your claims are.

You will have noticed that I have never made any claims about either organisation and will not do so.

I just want to know if things will work and the costs. If you can show those then I would agree with you.
Up until then you case is full of holes.

I have gone into considerable detail on the operating costs of both organizations and the reported costs of the boats.

These positions may enable one to extrapolate and to draw common sense solutions. Also business experience tells me that bringing lifeboat construction in-house was not the thing to do as that puts the threshhold of fixed cost at a very much higher level and makes decision taking less flexible.

When I was acting as a business consultant I usually first analysed the accounts for the last few years and these usually quickly pinpointed the areas of concern within the organization.

You are now asking the ridiculous question of how much cost was incurred by each arm of government which may or may not take part in an operation. Not only is that an impossible question to answer but it is also irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the costs incurred by each organization for the operations it takes part in. For the RNLI it is £171m and for the SNSM it is £23m. Both organizations are in the same ballpark with respect to shouts, rescues and fleets, and both organizations liaise with other services where necessary. If you accept that point then you should ask yourself why such a difference. The answer is that there are many more volunteers in France with only about 70 paid employees.

 

[rotrax]

How much gravel can the Shannons jets pick up before it grinds the jet to a stop?

.

Jet drives are very common-and reliable.

Forty years ago Kawasaki started selling PWC'S-personal water craft.

A collegue was responsible for the UK sales and service when I worked for them.

The jet drive was very reliable, even operated by non boaters.

New Zealand jet sprint boats used in their National and International series have up to 500 BHP from their highly tuned V8's. Debris and gravel dont seem to be a problem for these-why should a lifeboat system be any less reliable than either of these examples?

I dont suspect wind speed is an issue other than the effect it has on wave/surf action.

In my experience, as long as the surf/ waves are on the nose the launch should be no worse than when the Cromer lifeboat was launched down the beach with a team of horses and was sail and oar powered.

Probably before the French had an organised lifeboat service.

And before the RNLI.................................

 

[Sybarite]

Jet drives are very common-and reliable.

Forty years ago Kawasaki started selling PWC'S-personal water craft.

A collegue was responsible for the UK sales and service when I worked for them.

The jet drive was very reliable, even operated by non boaters.

New Zealand jet sprint boats used in their National and International series have up to 500 BHP from their highly tuned V8's. Debris and gravel dont seem to be a problem for these-why should a lifeboat system be any less reliable than either of these examples?

I dont suspect wind speed is an issue other than the effect it has on wave/surf action.

In my experience, as long as the surf/ waves are on the nose the launch should be no worse than when the Cromer lifeboat was launched down the beach with a team of horses and was sail and oar powered.

Probably before the French had an organised lifeboat service.

And before the RNLI.................................

I talked about that because the Cox'n of our local (jet) boat said that it was, at the time, under repâir for that reason and that the other one had just been repaired.

 

[dogleg]

I don't know to what extent the SNSM may govern their engines but both organizations quote the same hp ie 2 X 650hp. If governing builds in an extra safety factor, I am sure that the French mechanics would do the same.

Shannon engines are governed down by about 20%, the new French boat is bigger, what is it's weight? That will have a bearing on the power output required to reach designed speed.


Ref stones etc in jet engines well known hazard of course as are other things 13-01 spent to my recollection a long period under trials at Dungeness prior to acceptance to test just that problem you praise French engineers etc as knowing what to do, perhaps just perhaps you might consider that
Hamilton jet engineers and Poole know what they are doing likewise the Dutch who have run an all jet fleet for years with out any problems.

As to St Davids BH as said before sited in national park very tight building regulations, many agencies to satisfy etc much done from sea using jack up, how tight are building regs in France?

You did not comment on the pilot boat video I posted at 16 secs doing exactly what the prototype Shannon did in that very well known video

 

[dogleg]

How much gravel can the Shannons jets pick up before it grinds the jet to a stop?

You are not really interested in a response. However if you looked at the design in operation you could make a pretty educated guess.

What sort of wind speeds can the Shannon launch accommodate before the boat is swept off the carriage?


PS I don't really want to know either but it's a question in the same vein as yours.

Selsey Shannon launched twice in recent storms force 10 + with no problem video available on their FB page, the Shannon is held onto its carriage by fixings until the coxswain orders their release to allow boat to slip into water

their phone number is on the station page on the RNLI website, you could ring them and ask

 

[rotrax]

Questions pretty much answered then.

This thread is falling into a willy waving contest between two agencies that are both excellent in their own right.

We dont live in a perfect world and never will.

Instead of attacking/defending one or the other, just be thankfull that they are there when needed......................

On a personal note IDGAS what either one costs or how their money is spent!

 

[Sybarite]

Shannon engines are governed down by about 20%, the new French boat is bigger, what is it's weight? That will have a bearing on the power output required to reach designed speed.

The French boat is 29 tonnes loaded; the Shannon, 14.6. In other words with twice the weight and with the same engines they both have the same top speed. I think that says a lot about hull design.

Ref stones etc in jet engines well known hazard of course as are other things 13-01 spent to my recollection a long period under trials at Dungeness prior to acceptance to test just that problem you praise French engineers etc as knowing what to do, perhaps just perhaps you might consider that Hamilton jet engineers and Poole know what they are doing likewise the Dutch who have run an all jet fleet for years with out any problems.

The large French all weather boats are destined mainly for offshore shouts. There are smaller jet boats which operate closer to shore. I am certainly not making any claim that the French engineers know any better but jet driven boats have been present in the Frrench fleet for a long time.

As to St Davids BH as said before sited in national park very tight building regulations, many agencies to satisfy etc much done from sea using jack up, how tight are building regs in France?

Building regulations along the coast are tightly controlled in France. What I was criticizing was the palace being built just to house a boat. £11million...! The old boat house could have served for meetings, training etc...

You did not comment on the pilot boat video I posted at 16 secs doing exactly what the prototype Shannon did in that very well known video

I think that seas the French boat encountered were higher. However the point is - as I showed in the video (Post #35) - the vertical pitching between the two types of boat hulls was measured and was very much in favour of the pantocarene hull.

 

[Sybarite]

On a personal note IDGAS what either one costs or how their money is spent!

There is no argument against that.

However I wonder what the income stream is going to be like over the coming years when Brexit begins to bite?

The RNLI's structure is dependent on a continuing high level of donations.

 

[dogleg]

The French boat is 29 tonnes loaded; the Shannon, 14.6. In other words with twice the weight and with the same engines they both have the same top speed. I think that says a lot about hull design.



The large French all weather boats are destined mainly for offshore shouts. There are smaller jet boats which operate closer to shore. I am certainly not making any claim that the French engineers know any better but jet driven boats have been present in the Frrench fleet for a long time.



Building regulations along the coast are tightly controlled in France. What I was criticizing was the palace being built just to house a boat. £11million...! The old boat house could have served for meetings, training etc...



I think that seas the French boat encountered were higher. However the point is - as I showed in the video (Post #35) - the vertical pitching between the two types of boat hulls was measured and was very much in favour of the pantocarene hull.

Shannons have achieved speeds of 30+ knots on trials, they as you know are designed for a specific launching requirement

if when next in France I shall endeavour to look at one of the new French boats, perhaps you might consider viewing a Shannon or Tamar to judge for yourself the level of fit out and equipment and a bh when you venture to the UK

 

[Sybarite]

if when next in France I shall endeavour to look at one of the new French boats, perhaps you might consider viewing a Shannon or Tamar to judge for yourself the level of fit out and equipment and a bh when you venture to the UK

I would appreciate that very much.

 

[rotrax]

There is no argument against that.

However I wonder what the income stream is going to be like over the coming years when Brexit begins to bite?

The RNLI's structure is dependent on a continuing high level of donations.

And it ever was.

If Brexit is a reason for less in the way of donations, no doubt the highly paid people at the top of the RNLI will cut their coat according to their cloth.

Have they ever, in their long history, done anything different?