Sète's new lifeboat

[grumpy_o_g]

Never mind lifeboats, I want your smilies

Just right-click on the smilie and copy the image address, then you can post it as an image using the URL you copied.

 

[rustybarge]

I think that the emphasis should be on the fact that it was a monstrosity of a boat carriage which was designed to launch a Shannon off a beach - a carriage which in itself costs 25% more than the French lifeboat...!!

Last year I showed an Italian designed travel lift on caterpillar tracks which I am sure could perform the same task as the Shannon carriage at a fraction of the price.




Yes the first hull showed that there was unacceptable movement in bad weather and so they spent 3 years redesigning the hull which is an evolution of the first. If the RNLI rejected the pantocarene hull they would appear to be swimming against the current because they have been accepted all over the world from the Thames Estuary to Australia. Berthon built the first Shannons before construction was brought in-house. Afterwards Berthon announced tha they would continue to produce the Shannon for other customers. I would be very interested to know how many they have sold.




I am sure that there are but I haven't spent the time to investigate. OTOH if the CROSS needs to appeal to other countries for help the other countries have a legal obligation under treaty provisions to respond. It probably works both ways because the UK no longer has the equivalent of the "Abeille" ocean tugs in UK waters.

As I understand it the RNLI rejected conventional designs like the Safe Haven , Lochin and indeed the Pantocarene for one reason and only one reason: broaching in a following sea. Safe Haven put more deadrise with a finer entry in their design, and the Panticarene only addressed the bow section for better performance in a head sea which reduces violent pitching ....in theory.

So why did the Shannon design take so long to design, and how did they solve the broaching problem in violent breaking following seas?

Autopilot with vector control of the water jets to keep the boat tracking straight down wind with massive waves pushing on the transom; the hull is a conventional fine entry medium vee semi-d with small strakes to allow it to run up a beach without toppling over.

What took the development time? The software and creating the programming to cope with a staggeringly complex and rapidly changing environment storm conditions create.

 

[Sybarite]

As I understand it the RNLI rejected conventional designs like the Safe Haven , Lochin and indeed the Pantocarene for one reason and only one reason: broaching in a following sea. Safe Haven put more deadrise with a finer entry in their design, and the Panticarene only addressed the bow section for better performance in a head sea which reduces violent pitching ....in theory.

So why did the Shannon design take so long to design, and how did they solve the broaching problem in violent breaking following seas?

Autopilot with vector control of the water jets to keep the boat tracking straight down wind with massive waves pushing on the transom; the hull is a conventional fine entry medium vee semi-d with small strakes to allow it to run up a beach without toppling over.

What took the development time? The software and creating the programming to cope with a staggeringly complex and rapidly changing environment storm conditions create.

People are always saying that I should listen to the experts. Well I did. The Skipper of the Ile de Sein boat said that it was very stable on all points of the wind and waves, much more so than their previous boat with the conventional hull.

So maybe if you get the design right you don't need all the electrickery to keep the boat pointing where it's supposed to..??

 

[Sybarite]

You could not even show the max wind speed for your lift idea.
This has got beyond a Bee in your Bonnet, just look at the times that you have posted this stuff. You are definitely becoming obsessed.

I dealt with that in the series of posts that you are referring to; the travel hoist in question has articulated arms which fold to reduce windage.

http://www.boatlift.it/en/carrelli_travel_anfibi.asp (Click on tracked Croc Lift.)

It also has the advantage that it is remote controlled and so you you do not have the ridiculous tractor that has to wade in over the tractor driver's height in order to launch/recover the carriage.

As far as cost is concerned a normal travel hoist of the necessary size would cost something like £150k - £200k

Between that and £1.5m there is room for adaptation costs.

 

[NorthUp]

That's a lot of glass round that wheelhouse.

 

[rustybarge]

People are always saying that I should listen to the experts. Well I did. The Skipper of the Ile de Sein boat said that it was very stable on all points of the wind and waves, much more so than their previous boat with the conventional hull.

So maybe if you get the design right you don't need all the electrickery to keep the boat pointing where it's supposed to..??

The Panto boat is a clever solution to a fine entry hull with its downward pointing bulb bow; presumably it keeps the bow from pitching up off the crest of a wave. But rembember the crew are located in the wheelhouse aft of the midships so won't experience the pitching movement . I would think the disadvantage of this design is that the boat will bury itself in the front of steep waves which a conventional bow won't because of the rake of the stem.

I notice it has a conventional square transom, so they have not even tried solve the broaching problem with conventional shafts.

 

[dogleg]

I think that the emphasis should be on the fact that it was a monstrosity of a boat carriage which was designed to launch a Shannon off a beach - a carriage which in itself costs 25% more than the French lifeboat...!!

Last year I showed an Italian designed travel lift on caterpillar tracks which I am sure could perform the same task as the Shannon carriage at a fraction of the price.




Yes the first hull showed that there was unacceptable movement in bad weather and so they spent 3 years redesigning the hull which is an evolution of the first. If the RNLI rejected the pantocarene hull they would appear to be swimming against the current because they have been accepted all over the world from the Thames Estuary to Australia. Berthon built the first Shannons before construction was brought in-house. Afterwards Berthon announced tha they would continue to produce the Shannon for other customers. I would be very interested to know how many they have sold.




I am sure that there are but I haven't spent the time to investigate. OTOH if the CROSS needs to appeal to other countries for help the other countries have a legal obligation under treaty provisions to respond. It probably works both ways because the UK no longer has the equivalent of the "Abeille" ocean tugs in UK waters.

I know well the Pantocerene hulls have passaged several but the RNLI thought differently, the Shannon is very popular with its crews.

I am well aware of legal obligations for SAR and the withdrawal of CG tugs or ETV's to use the jargon was wrong but why are some French ASWLB's tide restricted ? surely there are sites where a slipway or beach launch could be used, or is there a lack of funds available to either build or design? I tend to remember many years ago a slipway launched boat at Ill Molene or Ushant area.

RNLI are advertising or have advertised for a new finance director salary to be negotiated so now is your chance to change the world or at least the RNLI


the new French boats are impressive but is misleading to compare them with the Shannon or Tamar which are designed for different launching methods other than afloat

I have never been critical of French boats or any another for that matter, please don't imply that the Shannon Tamar and others are somehow inferior simply on basis of cost.

Do the new French boats have a SIMS or similar electronics system and an inflatable stowed in the stern?

 

[Sybarite]

I know well the Pantocerene hulls have passaged several but the RNLI thought differently, the Shannon is very popular with its crews.

To quote the cox'n of the first new AWB, Ile de Sein "The design team and the builders couldn't have done better."

I am well aware of legal obligations for SAR and the withdrawal of CG tugs or ETV's to use the jargon was wrong but why are some French ASWLB's tide restricted ? surely there are sites where a slipway or beach launch could be used, or is there a lack of funds available to either build or design? I tend to remember many years ago a slipway launched boat at Ill Molene or Ushant area.

Sometime in the past I demonstrated that nowhere along the French coast were you more than one hour from an AWB lifeboat base and, in between, you had a cocktail of solutions. As far as the N.Brittany coast is concerned, they have AWBs afloat in at least the three ports that I visited l'Aberwrac'h, Roscoff and Tréguier. I'm not sure about Dielette but I think there may be one there too. Between there and say St Cast they may well have beach launched RIBs to deal with low tide problems. But I am just supposing; I am also supposing that they have their procedures duly worked out for low tide situations.

RNLI are advertising or have advertised for a new finance director salary to be negotiated so now is your chance to change the world or at least the RNLI

Yippee! Maybe they are following these theads after all...!!!

I have never been critical of French boats or any another for that matter, please don't imply that the Shannon Tamar and others are somehow inferior simply on basis of cost.

You may not have been but several posters were scathing about how inferior French boats were. I was trying to right the balance.

Do the new French boats have a SIMS or similar electronics system and an inflatable stowed in the stern?

I don't know what they call it but (as the architect said) they have the latest and most up to date electronics on board. And yes there is an inflatable stowed in the sterm; you can see it in the video in the OP.

 

[Sybarite]

. I would think the disadvantage of this design is that the boat will bury itself in the front of steep waves which a conventional bow won't because of the rake of the stem.

It is just the reverse IMHO; the pantocarene bow penetrates the oncoming wave whereas the Shannon bashes into it. If you watch videos of both I think you will see that the pantocarene makes much smoother progress. That would also be borne out by the fact that they both have the same engines and the same top speed even though the French boat is bigger and heavier.

 

[Mister E]

Still no maximum wind speed. Why do you not know that?

 

[dogleg]

It is just the reverse IMHO; the pantocarene bow penetrates the oncoming wave whereas the Shannon bashes into it. If you watch videos of both I think you will see that the pantocarene makes much smoother progress. That would also be borne out by the fact that they both have the same engines and the same top speed even though the French boat is bigger and heavier.

Shannon engines are governed down several per cent, are the French engines working at full output (not revs) to achieve speed, the French boat is in Atlantic different sea conditions to short steep seas with no or little swell in the video of prototype Shannon going through Portland Race which is I assume the video you are referring to


Good to see the French boat has inflatable stowed in space below decks at stern, Tamar has had this since the trials boat in 2000.

 

[rustybarge]

It is just the reverse IMHO; the pantocarene bow penetrates the oncoming wave whereas the Shannon bashes into it. If you watch videos of both I think you will see that the pantocarene makes much smoother progress. That would also be borne out by the fact that they both have the same engines and the same top speed even though the French boat is bigger and heavier.

Another problem with the Panto and its long bulb bow is all the debris, ropes, rigging and loose nets on a sinking vessel could get snagged on the bow or caught in the shafts/props, whereas the Shannon design has totally smooth underwater section with flush mounted water jets.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Sybarite may be obsessed but so also are the defenders of the RNLI. I support the RNLI but am disturbed by the apparent creation of an “empire” at Poole with the over the top salaries paid to too many “executives”, surveyors, designers etc. whilst the dangerous work is done by volunteers around the coast! True house prices are outrageous in Poole and the salaries have, to some extent, reflect this but perhaps the vocational spirit shown by the volunteers, who mainly live in modest houses in coastal villages, should be reflected by the staff at HQ.
It takes a very strong Chief Executive to downsize a charity’s beaurocracy; to question the traditional way of doing things in an organisation supported by often aged volunteers and where loyalty to the lifeboat is central to many communities.
I think Sybarite is doing a service by pointing out that some things could possibly be done more economically without prejudicing outcome. A competently run organisation always considers carefully alternative ways of working to improve efficiency. I’m not entirely convinced that the RNLI does, but I will continue to support it because, in the round, it’s a credit to the national spirit and a phenomenal service to all mariners in our waters.

 

[lpdsn]

Sybarite may be obsessed but so also are the defenders of the RNLI. I support the RNLI but am disturbed by the apparent creation of an “empire” at Poole with the over the top salaries paid to too many “executives”, surveyors, designers etc. whilst the dangerous work is done by volunteers around the coast! True house prices are outrageous in Poole and the salaries have, to some extent, reflect this but perhaps the vocational spirit shown by the volunteers, who mainly live in modest houses in coastal villages, should be reflected by the staff at HQ.
It takes a very strong Chief Executive to downsize a charity’s beaurocracy; to question the traditional way of doing things in an organisation supported by often aged volunteers and where loyalty to the lifeboat is central to many communities.
I think Sybarite is doing a service by pointing out that some things could possibly be done more economically without prejudicing outcome. A competently run organisation always considers carefully alternative ways of working to improve efficiency. I’m not entirely convinced that the RNLI does, but I will continue to support it because, in the round, it’s a credit to the national spirit and a phenomenal service to all mariners in our waters.

Good post. I think however that Sybarite's monomania has defeated any chance of a rational constructive debate on YBW.

 

[Sybarite]

Shannon engines are governed down several per cent, are the French engines working at full output (not revs) to achieve speed, the French boat is in Atlantic different sea conditions to short steep seas with no or little swell in the video of prototype Shannon going through Portland Race which is I assume the video you are referring to


Good to see the French boat has inflatable stowed in space below decks at stern, Tamar has had this since the trials boat in 2000.

I think you will find that this video explains it all :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24xDv-FmKM

 

[Sybarite]

Good post. I think however that Sybarite's monomania has defeated any chance of a rational constructive debate on YBW.

Define rational constructive debate.

I believe that I have provided the rationale for all the points I have raised.

That some might not like the fact that otrhers may well do things as well as the your cherished organization I know that may well rankle.

I am of course not twisting your arm to read my posts.

 

[lpdsn]

I am of course not twisting your arm to read my posts.

No, but you are starting quite a few and also trying to hi-jack threads that were started on other topics. Maybe if you just confined yourself to a single RNLI costs rant thread I could safely avoid that.

 

[dogleg]

I think you will find that this video explains it all :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24xDv-FmKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j97o4MTOEbw

watch at 16 secs somewhat similar to your preferred video of the Shannon

all boats are a compromise of values LB's especially because of what they do


you did not answer my question concerning the power output of the new French LB engines as to whether they were governed down from original HP Tamar engines are typically governed about 80 %


I have contacted a Shannon station for info on their engines

 

[robertj]

You can't beat a good forum for people making up their own stories! There is a graded pay system depending on the circumstances, yes, but you can't deny it's a good boat at a good price. RNLI executives do seem to be very well paid empire builders! ...
I'm going to the Cap D'Agde boat show at the weekend, I hope they bring it down to show it off.

point taken. What is the graded pay system if say you were rescued with a engine break down or lost mast etc.?

 

[davidej]

Sybarite may be obsessed but so also are the defenders of the RNLI. I support the RNLI but am disturbed by the apparent creation of an “empire” at Poole with the over the top salaries paid to too many “executives”, surveyors, designers etc. whilst the dangerous work is done by volunteers around the coast! True house prices are outrageous in Poole and the salaries have, to some extent, reflect this but perhaps the vocational spirit shown by the volunteers, who mainly live in modest houses in coastal villages, should be reflected by the staff at HQ.
It takes a very strong Chief Executive to downsize a charity’s beaurocracy; to question the traditional way of doing things in an organisation supported by often aged volunteers and where loyalty to the lifeboat is central to many communities.
I think Sybarite is doing a service by pointing out that some things could possibly be done more economically without prejudicing outcome. A competently run organisation always considers carefully alternative ways of working to improve efficiency. I’m not entirely convinced that the RNLI does, but I will continue to support it because, in the round, it’s a credit to the national spirit and a phenomenal service to all mariners in our waters.

+1