RYA ?

[oldrib]

Anyone else with a similar STCW watchkeeping certificate and tramping around the sunnier climes waving their CoC around?
Tormod

Only a lowly OOW, but I found that showing an MCA CoC just confused the people at the charter office, even more than normal!
They seemed to have a problem with the fact that it "only" lists OOW, making no mention of master, trying to point out that STCW II/1 involves loads more than a PB2 course made no difference.

Ended up paying the RYA for an ICC (after promising myself never to again) just to confirm that an OOW can manage a boat.
Can't really expect the receptionist type people to understand, so an ICC makes things smoother.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And why on earth do we have to pay and re-new ICC every 5 yrs. anyway? Surely apart from a waste of money and paperwork once you have it,you have it.

Those Olympic squads and Optimist meetings don't come cheap, you know.

 

[Tranona]

Those Olympic squads and Optimist meetings don't come cheap, you know.

Except that most of that type of activity is not funded by members, never mind income from offering the service of issuing ICCs, but from government funding. All in the accounts if you care to look.

Useful (but inevitably biased) account in this month's YM on how the RYA actually spend members' money - most of it on necessary representation and lobbying in pursuit of members' interests. Much of it never gets publicised because it is successful.

 

[Tintin]

Not sure if they still do it, but "back in the day" if you had coaching / instructor quals with the British Canoe Union and let your membership lapse then somehow you no longer had the competence to coach or instruct, but if you rejoined 5 years later and paid the fees you had missed, miraculously all the knowledge cam back and you were fit to coach and instruct - no exam needed.

Oh the power of money!

 

[Trident]

On the subject of needing an ICC, I hold a Merchant Navy officer's certificate of competency. (No RYA documentaion). I am contemplating the idea of taking my motor sailor to Portugal and have just made the discreet enquiry with the RYA as to whether I would need an ICC to go west about and down to Portugal and possibly even into the Med in the years to come! The answer was....."I would need to ask the Portuguese Authorities??" Anyone else with a similar STCW watchkeeping certificate and tramping around the sunnier climes waving their CoC around?
Tormod

In Portugal you will need no certificates at all - I had an ICC done by post to me in Spain before heading in to Portugal this summer because the guide books all spoke of the officious nature of the place - no one wanted to see it and when I asked in one marina they said they didn't do that any more since the financial crisis as most police and civill servants had been made redundant and so the pointless paper work went out the window. Just take a passport and boat insurance and registration. (The same is true in Spain, Italy and France)

 

[JumbleDuck]

Except that most of that type of activity is not funded by members, never mind income from offering the service of issuing ICCs, but from government funding. All in the accounts if you care to look.

As in "Income: Subscriptions and donations £4,041,808, Expenditure: Membership promotion and services: £1,174,316" compared to "Income: Events & coaching £1,177292, Expenditure: Events & coaching: £1,649,472."

http://issuu.com/rya1875/docs/rya-annual-report-2014?e=6269110/9141045

 

[GrahamM376]

In Portugal you will need no certificates at all - I had an ICC done by post to me in Spain before heading in to Portugal this summer because the guide books all spoke of the officious nature of the place - no one wanted to see it and when I asked in one marina they said they didn't do that any more since the financial crisis as most police and civill servants had been made redundant and so the pointless paper work went out the window. Just take a passport and boat insurance and registration. (The same is true in Spain, Italy and France)

Marinas have never wanted to see qualifications but, until a few years ago, the police office also had to be visited on arrival - that no longer applies as marinas now pass details on to them. However, don't believe the Customs, Policia Maritima and Navy aren't around at sea and in anchorages and they do inspect paperwork, they certainly haven't been made redundant. Although it's rarely asked for, the Portuguese do recognise the ICC, that's why it has the Portuguese translation on the back page.

 

[Uricanejack]

On the subject of needing an ICC, I hold a Merchant Navy officer's certificate of competency. (No RYA documentaion). I am contemplating the idea of taking my motor sailor to Portugal and have just made the discreet enquiry with the RYA as to whether I would need an ICC to go west about and down to Portugal and possibly even into the Med in the years to come! The answer was....."I would need to ask the Portuguese Authorities??" Anyone else with a similar STCW watchkeeping certificate and tramping around the sunnier climes waving their CoC around?
Tormod

Your fine you don't need anything else. You can sail professionally without anything else. On your own boat there will be no quibles.
If you try and charter don't expect them to know what it means.
I was once asked if it included navigation. Having a sailing certificate just simplifies things.
Funny thing is I have a couple of Croatian friends. Im told its a beautiful area to sail. If none of my certficates are acceptable. Charter companies loss, I will go somewhere else.

 

[superheat6k]

The ICC i have been issued restricts me to a 10m power boat. However, my YMO certificate does not specify sail or power.

My PB is 12m, so when I queried this I was told I would need to do a further assessment.

After 7 years with single and twin shaft power boats I shall not be bothering. I think I have just about mastered Port and Starboard, which is about all this certificate qualifies.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I do find the whole ICC renewal a scam. your yachtmaster ticket is a lifelong qualification but a bit of paper that certifies that you know the sharp end from the blunt end and which side of the hull the water should be needs renewing.

Qualifications are only routinely asked for by one or two European countries. Until you have an incident. At that stage, you may be asked to prove your competence.

An ICC will do, and so will an equivalent national certificate. With national certificates, to help things along, it's useful to carry a translation of key sentences - type of boat and scope of sailing covered.

If you have neither ICC or national certificate, I have received a report of an owner being told to take a local test before his boat papers would be returned after an incident causing some damage - with consequent delays and costs.

So, not a scam, but a cheap convenience which is not compulsory

 

[Seajet]

As for representation of ' the sport ' ( sailing & boating in general, not just racing ) - just remember that it took 4 yachties from these forums to wake up the RYA - and everyone else - to the Studland / MCZ issue; it turned out the legal side of the RYA had done some good work already, but the publcity side of RYA was seriously pants down.

They actually go to Old Harry & BORG who are our rep's in this even now, though once alerted the RYA did come on side with good support.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

As in "Income: Subscriptions and donations £4,041,808, Expenditure: Membership promotion and services: £1,174,316" compared to "Income: Events & coaching £1,177292, Expenditure: Events & coaching: £1,649,472."

http://issuu.com/rya1875/docs/rya-annual-report-2014?e=6269110/9141045

I remain slightly dubious about some of the numbers.... I am aware of one inland sailing club that has received a fleet of small dinghies, a rib to support them, and trailers and storage racking for them all... along with hosting regular regional and national 'squad events' with supporting coaches (full time at the RYA), fitness instructors, and are now talking about a grant from the RYA to buy gym equipment for the youth sailors.... now I don't necessarily have an issue with that, and like many, enjoy the success of our Olympic sailors, but it does seem somewhat at odds with the numbers presented unless this particular club is very very lucky..... I don't however, see much evidence of the RYA around the area I cruise, bar a few leaflets stuck in the marina offices.... Again, I do recognise that they are lobbying, but it does seem to be rather at an arms length for me, the average cruising sailor.

 

[Tranona]

I remain slightly dubious about some of the numbers.... I am aware of one inland sailing club that has received a fleet of small dinghies, a rib to support them, and trailers and storage racking for them all... along with hosting regular regional and national 'squad events' with supporting coaches (full time at the RYA), fitness instructors, and are now talking about a grant from the RYA to buy gym equipment for the youth sailors.... now I don't necessarily have an issue with that, and like many, enjoy the success of our Olympic sailors, but it does seem somewhat at odds with the numbers presented unless this particular club is very very lucky..... I don't however, see much evidence of the RYA around the area I cruise, bar a few leaflets stuck in the marina offices.... Again, I do recognise that they are lobbying, but it does seem to be rather at an arms length for me, the average cruising sailor.

One of the problems with an organisation like the RYA is that it has multiple objectives within an overarching strategy of promoting and representing water based sports. That inevitably means that members are very diverse as are the activities that they undertake. Equally inevitably members do not always agree with the way that money is spent. The suggestion earlier was that fees from issuing ICCs was being spent on other activities.

The costs of supporting the Olympic squad is not met by members but from Sports Council grants and some of the activities at lower levels is also funded by grants. Not unreasonable, given that those who participate in events, coaching etc are also members and therefore contribute membership fees, that some of that money goes into supporting their types of activities. They could equally be unhappy about the amount of time and effort that is expended on such things as political lobbying, free legal advice, representation on international bodies etc that is of most benefit to cruising members etc. No different to the usual conflicts of interest you find in many yacht clubs between dinghy racing, cruising and social members!

Individuals join for different reasons. Some to support the aims of the organisation as a whole, some because it enables them to participate in their particular aspect of the sport, and others perhaps to take advantage of a specific service. There is no compulsion to join, and in the specific case of the ICC there is no membership requirement - you can just pay once every 5 years with no other commitment. Whichever organisation got the contract to administer the scheme there would be a charge.

The problem for many people, particularly cruising sailors is that it is difficult to see a direct return for their subscriptions, never mind put a monetary value on them to compare with their expenditure, whereas other members do see direct monetary advantage for the services they use or activities they participate in. However, given there is no compulsion they can become free loaders and benefit from the (often intangible) achievements and pay directly for the individual tangible things they want or they can accept that they are making a contribution to the overall organisation by subscribing and accept that not all the potential benefits are of direct value.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I remain slightly dubious about some of the numbers.... I am aware of one inland sailing club that has received a fleet of small dinghies, a rib to support them, and trailers and storage racking for them all... along with hosting regular regional and national 'squad events' with supporting coaches (full time at the RYA), fitness instructors, and are now talking about a grant from the RYA to buy gym equipment for the youth sailors.... now I don't necessarily have an issue with that, and like many, enjoy the success of our Olympic sailors, but it does seem somewhat at odds with the numbers presented unless this particular club is very very lucky.....

The RYA also receives and disburses substantial grant income from, for example, the sports council. I suspect that's where your club's toys come from.

 

[JumbleDuck]

However, given there is no compulsion they can become free loaders and benefit from the (often intangible) achievements and pay directly for the individual tangible things they want or they can accept that they are making a contribution to the overall organisation by subscribing and accept that not all the potential benefits are of direct value.

That is assuming that the RYA's activities are at worst neutral. I'm not sure that's the case. I gave up on them when they stopped defending traditional harbours and moorings against commercial marina developments. Luckily for them the loss of my subscription was, I am sure, more than balanced by the substantial sponsorship deal they had arranged - quite coincidentally - with Marina Developments plc shortly before changing their policy.

 

[rivonia]

Suspect there is more to this than you are letting on. The RYA do not determine who is eligible, but the UN through Resolution 40. Initially this was limited to British nationals and residents who already held acceptable certificates or took the dedicated test, but has recently been widened to include UK residents who are nationals of certain other countries who have acceptable qualifications. See website for more details.

So the "refusal" could be because of your nationality or residence at the time or the ineligibility of your qualification. They cannot refuse if you are eligible.

I am BRITISH/ENGLISH. Born in LICOLN_England. We were staying in Cape town due to work commitments I trained and sailed with two different RYA Examiners.

 

[rivonia]

There's more to that than you are letting on. If it was a genuine RYA exam with an RYA examiner then the certificate would have been issued by RYA UK. I have done exams 'overseas' but the paperwork and the certificate still gets processed by the RYA HQ.

You say that the 'examiner' issued the certificate. As an examiner I don't ever issue certificates. All I do is write a report and make a recommendation to the awarding body.

I studide under Intec Maritime College. It was the college that issued me the certificate. It has on it R.S.A and R.Y.A. in bold writing on it. Recognised in all the countries that we visited. West Indies, Caribean,Bahamas, U.S.A. Azores. Spaon,Portugal.Gibralter all Islands and countries in the Med.

 

[Tranona]

I am BRITISH/ENGLISH. Born in LICOLN_England. We were staying in Cape town due to work commitments I trained and sailed with two different RYA Examiners.

Fine, but in your other post in reply to John you seem to recognise it is not an official RYA qualification you hold and therefore you are not eligible for an ICC. "Training and Sailing with two different RYA Examiners" does not qualify you for an RYA qualification. However if you wanted an ICC you would surely have had no difficulty in passing the free standing test offered by a variety of sailing schools and clubs to meet the requirements.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

One of the problems with an organisation like the RYA is that it has multiple objectives within an overarching strategy of promoting and representing water based sports. That inevitably means that members are very diverse as are the activities that they undertake. Equally inevitably members do not always agree with the way that money is spent. The suggestion earlier was that fees from issuing ICCs was being spent on other activities.

The costs of supporting the Olympic squad is not met by members but from Sports Council grants and some of the activities at lower levels is also funded by grants. Not unreasonable, given that those who participate in events, coaching etc are also members and therefore contribute membership fees, that some of that money goes into supporting their types of activities. They could equally be unhappy about the amount of time and effort that is expended on such things as political lobbying, free legal advice, representation on international bodies etc that is of most benefit to cruising members etc. No different to the usual conflicts of interest you find in many yacht clubs between dinghy racing, cruising and social members!

Individuals join for different reasons. Some to support the aims of the organisation as a whole, some because it enables them to participate in their particular aspect of the sport, and others perhaps to take advantage of a specific service. There is no compulsion to join, and in the specific case of the ICC there is no membership requirement - you can just pay once every 5 years with no other commitment. Whichever organisation got the contract to administer the scheme there would be a charge.

The problem for many people, particularly cruising sailors is that it is difficult to see a direct return for their subscriptions, never mind put a monetary value on them to compare with their expenditure, whereas other members do see direct monetary advantage for the services they use or activities they participate in. However, given there is no compulsion they can become free loaders and benefit from the (often intangible) achievements and pay directly for the individual tangible things they want or they can accept that they are making a contribution to the overall organisation by subscribing and accept that not all the potential benefits are of direct value.

I appreciate that, hence the reason why I was careful to not say they shouldn't be doing it. It just seems to absorb a disproportionate amount of their attention, and no doubt management time. If you want a perfect example, go look at the RYA site right now, and look under the cruising tab, and then cruising news... two of the nine articles on the first page are about dinghy racing!!!!!!

If they don't engage, and continue to shine the spotlight on dinghies constantly, they shouldn't be surprised to see the steady erosion of support that I sense from the cruising community.

 

[Tranona]

I appreciate that, hence the reason why I was careful to not say they shouldn't be doing it. It just seems to absorb a disproportionate amount of their attention, and no doubt management time. If you want a perfect example, go look at the RYA site right now, and look under the cruising tab, and then cruising news... two of the nine articles on the first page are about dinghy racing!!!!!!

If they don't engage, and continue to shine the spotlight on dinghies constantly, they shouldn't be surprised to see the steady erosion of support that I sense from the cruising community.

The biggest growth in membership over recent years has been in dinghy racing and cruising, sportsboats and RIBs, with increase in training activities in those areas also growing. Add to that the pressure from government to increase participation in sport and youth and entry level through financial incentives and it is not surprising that the RYA emphasis has moved in that direction.

Cruising is not a growth area - probably in decline plus it is more difficult to identify effective ways of promoting it so its main concerns are more to do with those intangibles I mentioned earlier. It is an activity which in a sense does not lend itself to organisation and control, indeed many take it up specifically to avoid such things. So perhaps there is little benefit for cruisers to join if they are looking for positive engagement, but who else is there to carry out all that behind the scenes work of representing their interests as a whole? We, collectively seem to take a lot of things for granted, whereas in fact it is lobbying activities that are responsible for a lot of our freedoms. You only have to look at the restrictive legislation in many other countries in Europe to see what can happen.