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toad_oftoadhall

toad_oftoadhall

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Sailfree said:
[a charter company in Croatia]gave a photo ID of competence to all charters that satisfied the locals and looked official but was not a RYA ICC. After posting that info on here some years ago I was contacted by the RYA that monitor this site and was asked for further details. I declined to provide further info.
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This snippet seems to raise a good few questions.

What does the panel think?
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
This snippet seems to raise a good few questions.

What does the panel think?
Click to expand...

I would think.
If the ICC was issued in Croatia by a Croation company. Its a valid Croation ICC and BA to do with the RYA.
As a Croation ICC its only valid in Croatia or on a Croation boat. but may be acceptable in other countries which require or accept the ICC as a standard.

Would a charter outfit in the Solent find it acceptable? Up to them.
 
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Uricanejack said:
If the ICC was issued in Croatia by a Croation company. Its a valid Croation ICC and BA to do with the RYA.
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I don't think anybody said it was an ICC - just a certificate purporting to indicate competence. If it didn't claim to be anything in particular, but looked nice and official and gave the local man something to stamp, then fair enough I reckon.

I doubt the company was Croatian, though.

Pete
 
l'escargot said:
We were given "Certificates of Competence" (including my daughter who was 4 at the time) by a flotilla company in Greece back in 2000 that seemed to satisfy the locals...
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I do wonder how it would go down if there were an accident though.

Never had any qualifications (nor been asked) sailing in Greece on flots. I think maybe they consider you
to be under the control of the lead boat in some way on a flotilla?
 
zzyyxx said:
Never had any qualifications (nor been asked) sailing in Greece on flots. I think maybe they consider you
to be under the control of the lead boat in some way on a flotilla?
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I have been asked about qualifications and experience by Sailing Holidays with respect to Ionian flotilla holidays on two occasions. However they have never insisted on proof and as far as I know they do not stipulate qualifications as a requirement.
 
Surely the whole ICC business is just a cash cow for all involved - not least the RYA. Charter a boat in France and a 5 minute 'assessment' by a student doing holiday work is good enough but take your own boat and suddenly extensive training and certification is required - with the associated fees, of course.
 
Sailfree said:
I am ICC and YM (Comm) but experienced the same with a company in Croatia. This company gave a photo ID of competence to all charters that satisfied the locals and looked official but was not a RYA ICC.
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I do this all the time... Not for sailing certs but for ID, I live in a wacky world where to get through gates and security is ID is often required.

Often required is Photographic ID, Identification requiring qualifications, National ID, Id requiring dates months, safety requirements, contact details, names,... The list goes on... They normally want passport \and/or Driving licence or other significant ID (no matter what there "position" or "rank" I am not to keen on letting "security" people look after my passport...

Simple answer make them... ID card holders are available so are laminating pouches (although if mass producing use A4 sheet and gilateen).

Here is an example for these needs:

Made on simple format maybe in navy blue (its to do with boats so people like that). I would suggest folded A5 made to look like its mass produced.

Name: Steamboat Willy
Gender: Male
Date of birth: 1928

Past Qualifications
RYA Dinghy Level one (1954)
RYA Days SKipper (Therory)
If you have been given pass cert by Mcclown sailing in Timbuk two as a 4 year old, include it as listed (even better attach cert).
Completed XYZ;s Adventure out door management training (Just do not mention it was nothing to do with sailing).

Permitted to skipper Charter boats:
Skippered Tugboat Louisiana river 1928
<Log Book table filled in as required>



This person has been shown to be competent as a skipper of yachts under 20 meters in length.

<Dodgy Signature and rubber stamp if available >

You only include official logos of clubs that you are permitted to and preferably have genuine rubber stamp for company you are allowed to use... There are few places this sort of thing does not work...

As long as you do not say the RYA (or any other such body) have qualified and only bend the rules, I doubt there would be much come back. Until some officious official catches you, but the chances of that I would say slim and if you are smooth talker you may well get away with it... As long as you have not been deliberately fraudulent..

PLEASE NOTE:
I AM NOT RECOMMENDING FALSIFYING YOUR QUALIFICATIONS - THIS OFFICIALS WILL TAKE A VERY GRIM VIEW ON

Just presenting what you have in a different manner, like a statement of fact. Maybe signed by a club officer? There should be no lies etc just a statement of your experiences and near relevant qualifications...

If your whole crew have similar pages written in different writing pen colors to show it has been built up over the years....

Then it might be easier to pass the course...

In my work we make ID so often and have the info to hand for other purposes that it only takes 5 minutes to knock a few ID's out...
 
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onesea said:
I do this all the time... Not for sailing certs but for ID, I live in a wacky world where to get through gates and security is ID is often required.

Often required is Photographic ID, Identification requiring qualifications, National ID, Id requiring dates months, safety requirements, contact details, names,... The list goes on... They normally want passport \and/or Driving licence or other significant ID (no matter what there "position" or "rank" I am not to keen on letting "security" people look after my passport...

Simple answer make them... ID card holders are available so are laminating pouches (although if mass producing use A4 sheet and gilateen).

Here is an example for these needs:

Made on simple format maybe in navy blue (its to do with boats so people like that). I would suggest folded A5 made to look like its mass produced.

Name: Steamboat Willy
Gender: Male
Date of birth: 1928

Past Qualifications
RYA Dinghy Level one (1954)
RYA Days SKipper (Therory)
If you have been given pass cert by Mcclown sailing in Timbuk two as a 4 year old, include it as listed (even better attach cert).
Completed XYZ;s Adventure out door management training (Just do not mention it was nothing to do with sailing).

Permitted to skipper Charter boats:
Skippered Tugboat Louisiana river 1928
<Log Book table filled in as required>



This person has been shown to be competent as a skipper of yachts under 20 meters in length.

<Dodgy Signature and rubber stamp if available >

You only include official logos of clubs that you are permitted to and preferably have genuine rubber stamp for company you are allowed to use... There are few places this sort of thing does not work...

As long as you do not say the RYA (or any other such body) have qualified and only bend the rules, I doubt there would be much come back. Until some officious official catches you, but the chances of that I would say slim and if you are smooth talker you may well get away with it... As long as you have not been deliberately fraudulent..

PLEASE NOTE:
I AM NOT RECOMMENDING FALSIFYING YOUR QUALIFICATIONS - THIS OFFICIALS WILL TAKE A VERY GRIM VIEW ON

Just presenting what you have in a different manner, like a statement of fact. Maybe signed by a club officer? There should be no lies etc just a statement of your experiences and near relevant qualifications...

If your whole crew have similar pages written in different writing pen colors to show it has been built up over the years....

Then it might be easier to pass the course...

In my work we make ID so often and have the info to hand for other purposes that it only takes 5 minutes to knock a few ID's out...
Click to expand...

Club Officers might have been OK in the distant past, when gentlemen were gentlemen, etc, but who on earth would take this as validation of 'competance' other than the ability to purchase a drink at the bar?
 
alant said:
Club Officers might have been OK in the distant past, when gentlemen were gentlemen, etc, but who on earth would take this as validation of 'competance' other than the ability to purchase a drink at the bar?
Click to expand...

You would be surprised how well presented made up ID can get you into the most unlikely places...

The most of the west coast of Africa and the USA was another (long story, it was by accident!).
 
onesea said:
You would be surprised how well presented made up ID can get you into the most unlikely places...
Click to expand...

A tip - if it's anywhere ex-Soviet, plenty of ink stamps help, and for some reason round ones (about an inch across) are considered more impressive than square ones!

Pete
 
john_morris_uk said:
Since the cost of an ICC is free for RYA members and £40 for non-members its hardly a cash cow for the RYA.
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I don't know how you reach that conclusion, the unit price alone isn't enough to decide - you need to state the volume as well.

There seems to be some circumstantial evidence that the RYA do regard ICCs as a cash cow:

- Five year renewal: They could choose any renewal period they want. Choosing five years is done for no other reason that to milk it. Other countries sell their citizens a lifetime ICC. There was nothing to stop the RYA choosing a 50 year renewal period to kick it into the long grass for most people.

- They've tied the CEVNI to the ICC. It would be quite possible to issue CEVNIs without the ICC as long as there was some kind of minimalist practical element to the CEVNI test.

- The current rules on who can examine for a UK ICC leverage sales of RYA qualifications and certainly put business the way of the sailing schools. AFAIK it would be perfectly legal to issue ICCs the old way - a signature from a yacht club officer.

- The information on the RYA website is clearly intended to boost ICC sales. They use the word 'accepted' all over the place to imply 'legally required'.

- Nowhere do they simply list all the nations that *require* visitors to have ICCs. Why not? The only reason I can think of is that the list would be so short that nobody would buy one. (And the only reason the ICC is required there for British Residents is that the RYA won't sell you a CEVNI qual without an ICC!)

- With the minimal set up and running costs the margins will obviously be enormous.

- They shamelessly use ICCs to leverage membership.

Whether or not such a cash cow is good or bad is a separate issue and one I make no comment on. You can argue it either way.

We should remind ourselves that vast majority of the worlds nations don't issue ICCs at all and their citizens travel/charter as freely in boats as we do but without spending time and cash getting initially assessed plus £40 every 5 years. Which might make someone ask: UK issued ICCs, A tax on stupidity?
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
I don't know how you reach that conclusion, the unit price alone isn't enough to decide - you need to state the volume as well.

There seems to be some circumstantial evidence that the RYA do regard ICCs as a cash cow:

- Five year renewal: They could choose any renewal period they want. Choosing five years is done for no other reason that to milk it. Other countries sell their citizens a lifetime ICC. There was nothing to stop the RYA choosing a 50 year renewal period to kick it into the long grass for most people.

- They've tied the CEVNI to the ICC. It would be quite possible to issue CEVNIs without the ICC as long as there was some kind of minimalist practical element to the CEVNI test.

- The current rules on who can examine for a UK ICC leverage sales of RYA qualifications and certainly put business the way of the sailing schools. AFAIK it would be perfectly legal to issue ICCs the old way - a signature from a yacht club officer.

- The information on the RYA website is clearly intended to boost ICC sales. They use the word 'accepted' all over the place to imply 'legally required'.

- Nowhere do they simply list all the nations that *require* visitors to have ICCs. Why not? The only reason I can think of is that the list would be so short that nobody would buy one. (And the only reason the ICC is required there for British Residents is that the RYA won't sell you a CEVNI qual without an ICC!)

- With the minimal set up and running costs the margins will obviously be enormous.

- They shamelessly use ICCs to leverage membership.

Whether or not such a cash cow is good or bad is a separate issue and one I make no comment on. You can argue it either way.

We should remind ourselves that vast majority of the worlds nations don't issue ICCs at all and their citizens travel/charter as freely in boats as we do but without spending time and cash getting initially assessed plus £40 every 5 years. Which might make someone ask: UK issued ICCs, A tax on stupidity?
Click to expand...

The usual load of mad, paranoid anti-RYA rubbish from you, Toad.

Tell me, what exactly did the RYA do to you?

You didn't perhaps fail your Yachtmaster exam did you?

- W
 
What on earth is the issue here?

If you can sail; or for the ICC steer a bit and park a bit, then why not just take the damn exam? You wouldn't want to be hit by a car driver with no licence would you and you all might suggest it wrong to drive a car without a test, so what's wrong with the ICC? It's not difficult, no one is asking you to do a full Ocean YachtMaster and if everyone took some kind of a skill test in relation to boats, it might cut down all the Pan Pan's and Maydays you guys go on and on about.

If some countries and/or charter companies want to know if you can prove you can handle a boat why object or make spoof certificates? Would you lend your boat to someone with out knowing they could handle her? I wouldn't.

Oh and what's wrong with the RYA trying to pay for itself? Cash cows? you guys really crack me up!!
 
The RYA being sole issuers of an internationally recognised certificate for which they charge 90% of their membership fee is my grievance. If issuing passports was devolved to Ryanair, who then charged 90% of flight cost or gave them free to those flying with them, there would rightly be uproar but that is exactly what the RYA do with ICCs. I object to several aspects of the RYA and do not want to contribute to the organisation but am forced to do so by the current arrangements. If the RYA must be the accredited agency for ICCs then the certificates should be available to all applicants at the same price and not used a a marketing gimmick to recruit members.
 
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