RYA Yachtmaster Ocean Written Paper - Grrrrr

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rpthomas

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Don't u just love the RYA?

I have the sights and the passage to qualify for my Ocean exam, and so asked the RYA for back papers so I could see the level at which the written test would be set.

"Its in the syllabus", said the RYA.

No, its not. What the syllabus tells me are the subject areas, not the level at which they will be covered. Atomic theory is covered in O Level Science, but you wouldn't expect a 15 year old to answer Graduate level questions.

So I'm stuck. I don't want to spend five days learning how to use a Sextant and reduce sights (things I know already) just so I can avoid the written test, but have no idea what level the paper is set at so can't easily revise for the written test.

Every competent examination body publishes back or sample question sets for their examinations. The RYA do it for their Restricted Radio Certification (though the book has some startling errors, like not including the position of the distressed vessel in its Mayday Relay example). If the RYA expects to be taken seriously, they should do this for ALL their written tests. (Rant over).

Anyone done it? Anyone got any back papers? Can you give me some pointers? Perhaps there is an RYA Ocean examiner reading this. If so, can you help?

Richard
 
I didn't have to do a written test, just had a chat with the examiner and showed him I knew what I was doing....my technique was not RYA method, so did some star sight calcs using their method. He'll quickly know if your up to looking after people and boat in ocean crossings.

Maybe check exactly what they expect of you? mine didn't want me to do any questions and answers.
 
It's been a few years and they've changed the syllabus a bit but FWIW-

There WILL be a question on TRSs so you need to be able to identify dangerous/navigable semicircles and what action to take based on changes in wind direction, pressure and forecasts for either hemisphere.

For the nav, though you might be asked briefly about sextant errors, the questions will mainly be based on written observations. You will be given name of body, time, deck watch error, observed altitude, index error and DR position and asked to plot an intercept. Noon lat will almost certainly come into it and they may put them together to get a sun-run-sun fix. They like to use the moon to see if you can do the extra bits.

I don't know how far they go into star sights these days but if it's still the same as it was 13 years ago, expect a question along the lines of 'at time x in DR position x, identify suitable stars for a fix and give azimuths and angle to set on the sextant' (they expect you to use air tables vol 1)

You'll need a copy of the RYA practice navigation tables which contain extracts from nautical almanac and air tables - no use using your own as the dates of the questions may be several years ago!
 
Quite correct Tiga. You can take the oral exam without doing the written paper but if you do, they will want a lot more than just a chat about passage planning and a flip through your sights. I don't know how you'd go about taking the shorebased exam without taking the course first.
 
I did the theory many years ago and can't remember the details too well. As I recall, the course (a long weekend) concluded more with a course completion certificate than an actual exam - there was a process of continual assessment including a quite formal astro test.

Like most RYA certificates, there are two routes to it: classic classroom-exam-practical-pass/fail; and proven previous experience straight to competence assessment. The YMO theory course is really there to teach astro and consolidate knowledge on ocean met. (particularly hurricanes, passage planning, yacht preparation, crew management (particularly watches and safety), sources of information (pilots, almanacs, tables etc). You also need a first aid certificate. The actual 'exam' is an oral assessment in which your sights and log books are examined and you can ebe questioned on any aspect of the published syllabus. The level required is, I have gathered, quite variable. You may be asked some very basic questions together with some quite searching ones. I suspect the examiner will suss you out quite quickly then either give you an easy ride or get more penetrating if he thinks you might not be up to it or boarderline in some areas.

As I discovered in my YM Offshore assessment, the examiner might also think - 'I've got a right one here, let's see what he can really do' - and throw the works at you. Fortunately I/we coped. The worst was manoverboard under jury steering. I think he was a bit surprised when we did it.
 
I'm working through The Ocean theory at the moment, The RYA practice tables for Ocean, have a set of questions in the front along with a 'check paper', alas no answers but you can see the level. Mainly reductions to position and plot from a set of readings, some planning of star sights and the theory around Ocean crossing, tropical storms etc.
 
You might try : -

"Ocean Yachtmaster Excercises" by Pat Langley-Price & Philip Ouvry

specifically headed at the RYA exam - I used it as a prep. before I took my exam and it worked ....
 
[ QUOTE ]
The RYA do it for their Restricted Radio Certification (though the book has some startling errors, like not including the position of the distressed vessel in its Mayday Relay example).
Richard

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious. None of the standard SRC exam papers I have covers a mayday relay, and the examples in the recommended textbook show you simply relaying the mayday message received. Which after all is what you should do. So what is it that you are referring to?

Anyway, when I did my YMO theory (never gone far enough to do the practical) the learning was about moon, sun and star sights, tropical revolving storms, and boat management / skippering on long crossings. Mind you GPS was then in its infancy. I would be surprised if they still put the same emphasis on the sextant nowadays.

The meteorolgy is particularly interesting.
 
Sorry, I should have made the reference clearer:

VHF Radio (inc GDSS)
VHF G22/02 Updated 2002 Pub: RYA page 27

QUOTE:

"The mayday call and message"
The Mayday Relay Call and message are formatted as follows:

Mayday Relay (repeated three times)
This is (name or callsign of the station making the tx, spoken three times)
Mayday (Name and MMSI of vessel in distress)
Nature of the distress
Assistance required
Time (optional)
Over

END QUOTE

OK, so you have relayed the mayday message. But what is the position of the vessel in distress? The introductory text makes it clear that the Class D VHF DSC has no facility for sending a position with an Urgency alarm, and even if it did, it would be yours, not the distressed vessell. If it sent a Mayday and you know its MMSI and are relaying its distress call, presumably you will either have its position from DSC screen, or from the original message. Or at least an estimated position for it, even if its a bearing from you and you give your own position. A relayed Mayday with no position seems to me to be missing the point of the whole thing. Presumably the Coastguard will call it up using its MMSI and ask it?

This post wasn't meant as a whinge, but simply frustration with the RYA doesn't seem to provide the kind of examination support that other examination authorities do, and a request for insight from others who have done the written test.

Thanks to those who have offered suggestions, which are helpful.

Richard
 
I too have a question mark over how much the RYA are actually an examining body, when compared to those that serve other vocational and professional sectors.

I struggle with their lack of consistency in how practical and theory is taught, and the almost secretative nature of past examination papers.

Then there is the minmum level of external verficiation in observing and verfiying that instructors and sailing schools are doing their job correctly and complying with quality standards.

The result is that we all have a different view of what the RYA will expect from us in an "examination" and have a wide range of stories to tell over how easy or how hard it was to pass.

Are we and our cash being taken for a ride ? Just a bit of paper from the RYA or a real qualification to be recognised ?
 
Now: Examination Standards at RYA

Thanks. Given that the MCA delegate the setting of standards to the RYA, and given the desire to keep Yachting free of regulation (its about the only place that is, these days), it seems important that the RYA should exhibit the same level of professionalism as other examining bodies. Should this be a separate topic?

Richard
 
Re: Now: Examination Standards at RYA

The RYA *is* the awarding body, in education admin parlance, and it does levy an annual fee on 'training providers' which is apparently hypothecated for the 'external verification' task.

There is a commendable urge to minimise the costs - standardisation visits are expensive, in any field - and it is ( very informally ) acknowledged that such visits tend to be geared to those providers that are causing a volume of complaints. The RYA considers that 'training providers' such as FE colleges are well capable of developing and maintaining standards of instruction, for they are involved in that in a continuing process, in everything else they do. It's the sailing schools, with sometimes very ropy standards of pedagogy and usually a very strong-willed character in charge, that require all the diplomacy and gentle handling of egos that 'RYA Towers' is so well regarded for. Don't lose sight of the fact that the RYA is 'a company limited by guarantee' and, at its core, a business.

I don't know how the RYA would otherwise 'vet' the standards of someone who does his own thing, certain in the knowledge that he "knows all this stuff and that no half-baked, jumped-up RYA instructor has anything to tell him about boat handling and management" - even though that tutor may have decades of relevant experience, several teacher and/or trainer courses under his/her belt, and has been through an RYA assessment instructor course as well.

The several YM Ocean examiners I've met could, each and all of 'em, separate the wheat from the chaff in minutes flat. They're as good as it gets. The guy I got considered that he was entitled to question me about 'any part of the syllabus' - both he and I took that to mean *anything* from Competent Crew, onwards. And I think that's fair enough....

Good luck with your 'sun's amplitudes' and your moon and planet fixes.

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Now: Examination Standards at RYA

I think your comments raise even more questions in my head.

Does the RYA allow the quality and robustness of their qualification sytem to be comprised in the name of saving themselves the cost of increased external verification ?

Are FE Colleges considered by the RYA to be exempt from being monitored by their assumed status and capability, despite some of the worst experiences of teaching today being found in evening class courses ?

To maintain diplomacy, (ie income), are some accredited centres for RYA qualifications a law unto themsleves in terms of how it should, be taught and examined ?

Is the RYA more of a "business" that is non-profit making as a result of high fees demanded by their examiners, or is it an "Awarding Body" that should come into line with quality assurance standards that others have to follow under the Qualifications Curriculum Authority ?

Most sailors do not undertand how Awarding Bodies and qualifications work in the UK. Ignorance is one the ways our academic bodies avoid the truth about the real value of a so called recognised qualification.

How many of us throught we could drive car after we had passed our test, only to find it was simply a legal requirement to be on the road and there was still much to learn.
 
You also need a first aid certificate.
___________________________________________________

???????
The RYA regs only state that the Ocean certificate " is open to candidates who hold the RYA/DoT Yachtmaster Offshore certificate or DoT coastal certificate issued-------------- prior to 1974"

also,

<You can take the oral exam without doing the written paper but if you do, they will want a lot more than just a chat about passage planning and a flip through your sights. I don't know how you'd go about taking the shorebased exam without taking the course first.>

From 'RYA Yachtmaster (Ocean) Excercises and tables booklet' - "candidates who do not hold course completion certificate for the RYA/DoT Yachtmaster Ocean Shorebased course will be required to take a written exam on the star sight planning and reduction and meteorology"
 
[ QUOTE ]
I too have a question mark over how much the RYA are actually an examining body, when compared to those that serve other vocational and professional sectors.

I struggle with their lack of consistency in how practical and theory is taught, and the almost secretative nature of past examination papers.

Then there is the minmum level of external verficiation in observing and verfiying that instructors and sailing schools are doing their job correctly and complying with quality standards.

The result is that we all have a different view of what the RYA will expect from us in an "examination" and have a wide range of stories to tell over how easy or how hard it was to pass.

Are we and our cash being taken for a ride ? Just a bit of paper from the RYA or a real qualification to be recognised ?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an issue of balance and proportionality here. You cannot treat a day skipper qualification in the way you would "recognised qualifications in professional or vocational sectors". Leaving aside the question of cost and what the RYA can do with just £20 or so fee it charges, day skipper courses are aimed at giving some basic skills to those who want to go sailing. Raise the cost too much, make them too difficult and the take up would fall. The RYA policy is one of encouraging people to continue to learn, not one of making hurdles for them to jump over.

By the time you get onto YM, there is outside examination seperate from the sailing school and mostly done by master mariners. But even YM is not really a serious professional qualification.

Any RYA teacher worth his salt has past exam papers available for mocks etc. But do you really need to see past papers to know that you will be asked to do a course to steer, and an EP and a secondary port etc in the YM theory. The questions are exactly the same as those you see in the exercises anyway. Whilst the practical is a judgement of your ability to skipper a yacht done by a professional skipper.

Sailing is not an academic subject to be taught in a schoolroom way. Its a practical skill with limited book learning.
 
Richard

I can not of course give away any exact question/answers from the written papers.

I can however tell you in answer to your original question your knowledge level would be expected to be able to do the following.

Reduce sun sight and mer pass
plot position lines and run between sights.

Describe basioc corrections that you would make.allow for with a sextant in normal use

Be aware of global trends month by month ie what time of year to attemp a Northen Hemphisphere West to East Trans Atlantic passage.

Understand basic trends of a hurricane/TRS, when they occur, if you are in the likey track or not and what action to take if you are in the likely track.

there is nothing that comes up in the paper that isnt coveed in Tom Cunliffes book or learnt from a bit of ocean sailing mixed with common sense.


hope this helps
 
Dear Richard and other sailors,

Thanks for the info on the Ocean stuff. Very useful.
I'm have been planning on taking it myself now for a number of years, but being a delivery skipper have found it difficult to combine a period of having the money and having the time! I've usually got one of those, but never both!
I'm loathe to take the sailing school route, I've thrown far too much money at them at various stages of my career.
Thus I stumbled on this thread, trying to get hold of past papers. In an attempt to avoid even the correspondence/online theory courses.

So I put it to you guys. Whats the cheapest way to get a commercially endorsed ocean yachtmaster?

FYI. I am a commercially endorsed YM. With 50 000nm experience, a lot of which is comprised of 'ocean' passages.

Good winds and safe sailing.

Matthew

Skipper with Thumbs Up Sailing Yacht Delivery http://www.sailingyachtdelivery.com
 
I am providing this information because I do not agree with the apparent RYA policy of secrecy around the level of the ocean written exam. I see this as an attempt to have people give lots of money to the RYA for their courses despite already having the knowledge and experience required. I spent many unnecessary hours worrying about the exam. This was not needed. If you have the knowledge and experience to get through the oral the written will be trivial. The 2 hr exam is in two parts.

Part A, Sun run Sun sight reduction and plot. If you can reduce meridian passage and sun sights you are ok here. The RYA approved method is to use the example 249 table provided but check with your examiner on approved methods, most will be flexible.

Part B Three questions on Ocean planning and handling.

One question will be about tropical revolving storms, you should know this well anyway.

One question will be about prevailing ocean conditions, here are the two examples that I have. My concern about being asked about monsoons in the Indian Ocean were totally unfounded.
List and describe the information on an Admiralty Routeing Chart.
Which of the following routes has the best chances of favorable currents:-
Newfoundland-UK
Gib-Canaries
Portugal-UK

One question will be about boat prep for passage here are the two examples I have:-
Discuss how you would provision a 37ft boat with 4 people aboard for a passage of 2700nm from the Canaries to Caribbean.
Discuss storage and fresh water requirement. Discuss how you would prevent cross contamination of fresh water.
What charts and publications would you have aboard a yacht for an ocean passage.

If you have done a few passages as skipper this should be no problem

Good luck with your exams
Prometheus.
 
The RYA don't like passing out old exam papers as the questions rotate every 2 or 3 years ans with a full set of previous papers you could walk the exam.

Having said that it's not difficult, you get extra marks (or possibly just marks) for logical layout which the poor old examiner can follow when he's marking it all.
 
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