RYA vs ICC

[Sgeir]

This thread has all the makings of a forum classic.

Here's a simple piece of paper, easily understood how to acquire, something that many of us hold, and yet we can have so much debate, misunderstandings and repetition.......

 

[[70521]]

This thread has all the makings of a forum classic.

Here's a simple piece of paper, easily understood how to acquire, something that many of us hold, and yet we can have so much debate, misunderstandings and repetition.......

Certainly is. Do you need some pop corn?

 

[awol]

I got mine, since well lapsed, on the say-so of my club's secretary. Almost got another based on racing against a local RYA instructor, but couldn't really be ersed.

 

[Sgeir]

Do you need some pop corn?

Good idea. It's still a wee bit early for cocoa.

 

[Mark-1]

Neither France, Sweden nor the UK require an ICC.

Yup, although as I'm sure you're aware, on a Swedish flagged boat over 12m length and 4m beam you do need some kind of qualification.

Interestingly, YM have said that "Charter skippers need an RYA Yachtmaster or ICC ticket." for Sweden, which I think is an error. Perhaps they intended to say "Some Charter firms require customers to have an RYA Yachtmaster or ICC ticket."

 

[Tranona]

Yup, although as I'm sure you're aware, on a Swedish flagged boat over 12m length and 4m beam you do need some kind of qualification. Interestingly, YM have said that "Charter skippers need an RYA Yachtmaster or ICC ticket." for Sweden, which I think is an error. Read more at http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/crui...s-pocket-wilderness-32654#s0UXw72BxkOoo1jg.99

There is a distinction between legal requirements and the requirements of the operator /owner/insurer of the charter boat.

Even if there is no legal requirement the latter may well want some evidence that charterer is sufficiently experienced and competent.

 

[Davy_S]

I used a Greek insurance company to insure my Brit registered small mobo, they insisted on a photo copy of my ICC, before they could insure it, once they had done this the insurance was issued.

 

[Donside]

In this context, then, is an RYA Yachtmaster (Coastal) a waste of time?
Clearly it has no international significance, so of what use is it?

 

[Prasutigus]

In this context, then, is an RYA Yachtmaster (Coastal) a waste of time?
Clearly it has no international significance, so of what use is it?

Greetings, surely presenting a YM Practical certificate, whether Offshore or Coastal, means that you don't need to show an ICC to, for example, a Greek official, or a charter company?
Or is the ICC the only ticket they recognize?

 

[Kwik Decision]

In this context, then, is an RYA Yachtmaster (Coastal) a waste of time?
Clearly it has no international significance, so of what use is it?

If you hold YM Coastal (or any other practical cert from Day Skipper upwards) the RYA will issue you with an ICC. If your only aim is to get a piece of paper to enable you to sail without too much hassle from Greek port police etc, then the YM Coastal is not required - an ICC does the job nicely. A YM Coastal does have other uses, particularly if you want to skipper commercially; as Tranona notes, all the details are on the RYA web site.

Greetings, surely presenting a YM Practical certificate, whether Offshore or Coastal, means that you don't need to show an ICC to, for example, a Greek official, or a charter company?
Or is the ICC the only ticket they recognize?

See post 36 - the strength of the ICC is it has a description of what it is, in 9 different languages, on the back.

 

[Tranona]

In this context, then, is an RYA Yachtmaster (Coastal) a waste of time?
Clearly it has no international significance, so of what use is it?

You are confusing two very different things. The RYA qualifications are structured course of study aimed at equipping you with a wide range of skills. There is no direct intention to make them internationally acceptable, although is some cases they are, particularly at a commercial level. There is no international standard, except possibly the ICC which is a UN sponsored certificate originating from CEVNI which is the body that manages much of Europe's canal network.

It is not a structured course of study, but simply an assessment of basic competence in boat handling and navigation. It can be obtained either as a result of gaining national qualifications such as the RYA ones or you can undertake a specific assessment against the competences. The certificate is normally issued by the state to its citizens. All the RYA qualifications of Day Skipper an above automatically qualify you.

You can read more about the certificate and its relation to qualifications on the RYA site.

 

[Tranona]

Greetings, surely presenting a YM Practical certificate, whether Offshore or Coastal, means that you don't need to show an ICC to, for example, a Greek official, or a charter company?
Or is the ICC the only ticket they recognize?

This is the way things seem to be going. After all that was the whole purpose of the UN sponsoring the certificate - even though Greece is not a signatory! If you hold the qualifications you list you are entitled to an ICC so no big deal. If you are a member of the RYA it is free, if not there is a small charge.

If you see the list of national qualifications that are available - for example on the Croatian government site you will appreciate why the Greek authorities prefer the ICC with its personal details and common format in different languages.

 

[awol]

You are confusing two very different things. The RYA qualifications are structured course of study aimed at equipping you with a wide range of skills. There is no direct intention to make them internationally acceptable, although is some cases they are, particularly at a commercial level. There is no international standard, except possibly the ICC which is a UN sponsored certificate originating from CEVNI which is the body that manages much of Europe's canal network.

It is not a structured course of study, but simply an assessment of basic competence in boat handling and navigation. It can be obtained either as a result of gaining national qualifications such as the RYA ones or you can undertake a specific assessment against the competences. The certificate is normally issued by the state to its citizens. All the RYA qualifications of Day Skipper an above automatically qualify you.

You can read more about the certificate and its relation to qualifications on the RYA site.

Oh dear. The Yachmaster Certificates of Competency requires no course of study, structured or otherwise. Like the ICC they require a demonstration of knowledge and ability on the day of test. How you obtain thet knowledge and ability is entirely up to you but does not require payment to anyone. Day Skipper, on the other hand, is a course completion certificate which costs money.

 

[Tranona]

Oh dear. The Yachmaster Certificates of Competency requires no course of study, structured or otherwise. Like the ICC they require a demonstration of knowledge and ability on the day of test. How you obtain thet knowledge and ability is entirely up to you but does not require payment to anyone. Day Skipper, on the other hand, is a course completion certificate which costs money.

I was trying to keep it simple. While you do not need to complete a structured course for YM, I would guess that most people do follow one as the body of knowledge required is of a different order to that required for an ICC. The latter was never intended to be a free standing "qualification" but an endorsement of an existing qualification.

This is contentious, as is the whole concept of "competence". Having been deeply involved in the national debate on competence - how the underlying knowledge and skills are obtained and how it is assessed (and even what competence is required) I can say there is still a lack of agreement. At one end of the spectrum are those who say there is no need for any structured learning process and others who prefer to have evidence of understanding as it is so difficult to provide a consistent setting to assess individuals.

The RYA (like many other sponsors of qualifications) sits in the middle in providing a structured programme of study with linked assessment while leaving open the opportunity for assessment without formal evidence of of how the knowledge was acquired. It would be interesting to know how many individuals take advantage of the latter.

The ICC on the other hand has no underlying course of study as it is simply a way of demonstrating very basic competence that can be assessed relatively easily. However, I would suggest that most people acquire one on the basis of an existing national qualification on the assumption that these qualifications cover the basic competences.

I would imagine that there was very little discussion on the philosophy of competence and its assessment when the scheme was developed as it is perhaps more important that it is seen as a universal solution to an administrative problem rather than a process of education and development!

 

[vyv_cox]

Greetings, surely presenting a YM Practical certificate, whether Offshore or Coastal, means that you don't need to show an ICC to, for example, a Greek official, or a charter company?
Or is the ICC the only ticket they recognize?

The critical word in your post is 'recognise'. Most Port Police and other officials speak pretty good English but do not necessarily read it very well. For example, they will always use the DEKPA when filling in their forms, although exactly the same information is presented in the boat's registration papers, simply because it is in Greek. A YM certificate may very well indicate a superior level of qualification than an ICC, but they quite understandably are reluctant to wade through text that they barely understand, never mind comprehend the implications of the various examination levels. Whereas they are familiar with an ICC and know that if your name is on it you are sufficiently well qualified.