RYA Safety Advisory Notice

[macd]

This sort of patronising attitude really p*sses me off. It implies the person with 40 years' experience is the only person fit to sail or have an opinion. It also ends up discouraging other people from getting into whatever field it applies to, not to mention demonstrating a strange insecurity from the person spouting forth: you'll never be as good as me because you've only got x qualification or x experience. Big deal - forgive me for not being born on an oyster smack in the 1920s.

I did a ten-week YM course during the summer. I'd already done c. 2,500 miles, including some offshore racing, so not quite zero-to-hero. I learned shedloads by doing it; more than I would have by doing the odd bits of sailing that most of us get the chance to do. The school was keen to point out that passing the exam was just the beginning, and I'm the first to admit that there's more I don't know than there is that I do know. Learning to sail is a life-long process and I'm looking forward to the journey.

But to have that training and qualification summarily dismissed by someone with an axe to grind against the RYA makes me realise there's a certain sort of sailor I don't want to become.

1. I have no axe to grind against the RYA.
2. I'm not patronising anyone and the inference you drew was your own, not implied by me. Much less was I suggesting they have no right to sail or venture an opinion. What I am saying is that however long anyone has sailed, whether 5 months or 50 years, they're still learning, as you rightly say. Nor am I saying that a 'yachtmaster' qualification does not have value, just that it does not in any meaningful sense make one a master of yachting. Incidentally I was heartened to read that your sailing school put it in precisely that light.

 

[flaming]

Nor am I saying that a 'yachtmaster' qualification does not have value, just that it does not in any meaningful sense make one a master of yachting.

Ah, so your issue is with the name inferring things that you do not feel the qualification backs up?

Does have a better ring to it than "quite good sailor, though with plenty still to learn" though.

 

[macd]

Ah, so your issue is with the name inferring things that you do not feel the qualification backs up?

Does have a better ring to it than "quite good sailor, though with plenty still to learn" though.

But yes, my quibble is merely with the name, not the course/qualification itself. And you hit the nail on the head because the alternative you light-heartedly suggest would probably not attract so many 'customers' = revenue. (On the other hand PADI seems to do quite well...)

 

[flaming]

But yes, my quibble is merely with the name, not the course/qualification itself. And you hit the nail on the head because the alternative you light-heartedly suggest would probably not attract so many 'customers' = revenue. (On the other hand PADI seems to do quite well...)

They have a qualification called a "PADI Master Scuba Diver". Struggling to see the difference!

So what would you change the Yachtmaster name to then?

 

[Keen_Ed]

Yes

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...t-deaths-Fast-turn-led-to-tragedy-report-says

A driving license means that you can go an buy a Ferrari. Doesn't mean you're good enough to drive it.

A RIB with a 300 hp motor is a serious beast, and should be respected. Training above and beyond PB2 would make eminent sense to me. Not a legal requirement, but lots of advice for buyers of boats capable of over - say - 25 kts that there is suitable training available and should be taken.

Clever people learn by other people's mistakes. A training course is a much faster way to learn than by making all the mistakes yourself.

 

[lw395]

A driving license means that you can go an buy a Ferrari. Doesn't mean you're good enough to drive it.

A RIB with a 300 hp motor is a serious beast, and should be respected. Training above and beyond PB2 would make eminent sense to me. Not a legal requirement, but lots of advice for buyers of boats capable of over - say - 25 kts that there is suitable training available and should be taken.

Clever people learn by other people's mistakes. A training course is a much faster way to learn than by making all the mistakes yourself.

TBH, I think several years experience of pushing the limits a bit with a 40HP boat might be needed before most people are safe with 300HP, except to go in straight lines.

If people don't take on board the concepts in the basic training, it's a lost cause.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

http://issuu.com/ascenderuk/docs/rya_safety_advisory_notice_a5_12pp_?e=6269110/6187538

'Clipping on' omitted yet again. I wish they'd explain *why* they feel it's not important enough to mention. The RNLI also seem to be able to write these kind of documents with mentioning it. (Yet they cheerfully put substantial jackstays on their lifeboats so they must accept there's some benifit.)

 

[alant]

Without getting into minute detail, my general criticism of RYA training is that, being profit-making, one of its fundamentals is the need to attract 'customers' (or whatever they like to call them). This is surely one of the reasons why satisfactory completion of a fairly basic course qualifies one as a 'yachtmaster', when in reality a successful candidate is no such thing. Such a course should, at the least, demonstrate to the candidate what he or she does not know, as much as what they do. No doubt many candidates (and perhaps a higher proportion than average amongst visitors to these forums) do glean that from it and thus do not over-rate their capabilities; but I daresay that many of us have a sense, if only from anecdotal evidence, that this is not always the case. There's also the issue of whether pass-rates are sufficiently rigorous. A little knowledge, as the saying goes...

That said, it's difficult to conceive of a way which a body such as the RYA could improve in this respect without denting their commercial position.

You've obviously never been on one!

 

[alant]

But yes, my quibble is merely with the name, not the course/qualification itself. And you hit the nail on the head because the alternative you light-heartedly suggest would probably not attract so many 'customers' = revenue. (On the other hand PADI seems to do quite well...)

P put
A another
D dollar
I in

 

[alant]

'Clipping on' omitted yet again. I wish they'd explain *why* they feel it's not important enough to mention. The RNLI also seem to be able to write these kind of documents with mentioning it. (Yet they cheerfully put substantial jackstays on their lifeboats so they must accept there's some benifit.)

Its about safety 'on the water', not specifically yachts.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

But yes, my quibble is merely with the name, not the course/qualification itself. And you hit the nail on the head because the alternative you light-heartedly suggest would probably not attract so many 'customers' = revenue.

+1.

Poncy course titles sell well to a certain kind of person, especially if a title is chosen that can easily be erronoiusly adopted as their own "title", eg: "I am a Competent Crew" "I am a Day Skipper" "I am a Yachtmaster". All these terms are completely inappropriate for an exams/courses that could be taken in the Solent and require no periodic retest.

There certainly a case to be made that the RYA should revert to using objective numbers to identify courses/exams as they have done in the past and still do with many other courses.

 

[capnsensible]

+1.

Poncy course titles sell well to a certain kind of person, especially if a title is chosen that can easily be erronoiusly adopted as their own "title", eg: "I am a Competent Crew" "I am a Day Skipper" "I am a Yachtmaster". All these terms are completely inappropriate for an exams/courses that could be taken in the Solent and require no periodic retest.

There certainly a case to be made that the RYA should revert to using objective numbers to identify courses/exams as they have done in the past and still do with many other courses.

I am a Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Commercially Endorsed, but I prefer No. 43.

 

[SimonFa]

Some observations:

Of course the RYA and training schools have to make money out of the courses, if they don't who is going to pay for them, the Poor B****y Taxpayer? The alternative being no courses and even more untrained people out in the Solent on a bank holiday weekend providing lots of fodder for these Forums.

This means they have to find a balance in the content between providing useful knowledge and practise and course length. If they make them too long fewer people will do them and if not enough content they lose all credibility, not just among lifetime sailors.

On average I would rather the RYA controlled the scheme rather than random individuals on an Internet forum or sailing schools that anyone can set up. The RYA have the time and wherewithal to think long and hard about the problem and consult widely. Yeah, they may get the relative importance of some bits wrong in the eyes of some experienced sailors, but a lot less than the alternative which is everyone learning random stuff. That said random stuff is great and possibly better, as long as you make everyone do, say, 10 courses.

So what that the RYA names appeal to the ego? If it attracts more people to do them so much the better. I can't see it putting anyone off where as doing course number 43 sounds tedious and not designed to attract people.

What's the alternative with power (any) boats? Licensing the sale of them and making possession illegal without a Powerboat Super-duper Advanced Licence that can only be obtained by getting a 100% score on an exam approved by 100% of the members of an Internet forum? That will take some policing.

In the end its all about personal responsibility and if someone wants to ignore the advice of instructors or not even do a course no amount legislation is going to stop them being idiots. look at the amount of accidents we see involving people without a valid car licence or insurance.

 

[vyv_cox]

Yes

The RYA always welcome suggestions as to how training may be improved. The relevant staff may be contacted by email through their website.

I dispute this. I have e-mailed on two occasions regarding the training and information pages on the RYA website. I received an automated response that my mail would be forwarded to the appropriate person but never had any other reply.

 

[capnsensible]

I dispute this. I have e-mailed on two occasions regarding the training and information pages on the RYA website. I received an automated response that my mail would be forwarded to the appropriate person but never had any other reply.

I would say that is unusual, I email training quite a lot, always prompt replies.

You could ring and ask for Vaughn Marsh if you are not happy.