RYA-Offensive presumption?

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I've just read the news item of the pending retirement of the RYA Chief Executive. It states that the RYA is"the governing body" of the sport. As one of the 150000 personal members and a member of 2 sailing clubs that are affiliated I did not join to be "governed", but to be represented and supported. Indeed I believe that nowhere in the Rules and Articles of the Association does this phrase occur. Perhaps it's time for some membership pressure at the next AGM to bring the Council and Staff back in touch with the needs of the grass roots and away from the "nice little earners" of forever expanding training and so much concentration on the Olympic Games and Youth Championships and the associated funding which expands the empire! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[cliffordpope]

Oh dear, you are out of touch!
I'll keep this simple. We all live in "communities". These may be religious, racial, occupational, regional, or recreational. You can't escape them - membership is compulsory and therefore automatic. (You can in theory belong to several, which may even be self-contradictary, but we don't talk about that.)
Communities have leaders. These are self-appointed, but have a duty to consult their "stakeholders" (eg you). This means they publish very expensive glossy reports telling you what they have decided. There may even hold meetings, after they have decided what to do, and offer you a series of options all of which mean basically the same thing.
If an organisation has a "chief executive", it means it is a governing body. The purpose of a governing body is to keep looking around for more things to govern.

Where on earth did you get the idea that this had anything to do with just messing around in boats?

 

[lw395]

The RYA is the UK governing body of sail racing, not sailing.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree.

I don't think it's salvageable. Someone needs to set up something new with a clear constitution to represent their members' interests -- everyone who enjoys messing about in boats, from Olympics to pram dinghies on the local river.

Maybe the 'Royal' part is the problem? I'm no left-winger or republican but how about a Peoples' Boating Association, and leave the RYA for the Royals?

 

[maxi77]

That is technicaly correct the RYA is the 'Governing Body' for the organised sport of sailing in the UK. This of course has very little to do with those of us who potter about in boats of all shapes and sizes, but when I was actively racing it was important. Every country which takes part in the orgaised sport of sailing has an equivalent 'governing body' to the RYA.
Only National Governing Bodies can be represented at ISAF but once again ISAF has little to do with the cruising yachtsman if anything at all. So if you are a cruiser the fact that the RYA is the governing body for the sport ofd sailing in the UK means little to you and can be ignored. It is certainly nothing to get ones blood pressure up about and absolutely no grounds for outrage.

 

[Mudplugger]

Cruising Association! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
It is certainly nothing to get ones blood pressure up about and absolutely no grounds for outrage.

[/ QUOTE ]Except that the RYA, a predominantly racing-oriented organisation, 'represents' cruisers and messers-abouters when it comes to regulations and officialdom. I would like to see a non-racing organisation take over those functions. Meanwhile, the RYA should be obliged to provide non-members the ICC at the same price as it charges its members.

Still, to be fair to the RYA, it is not its fault that nobody has bothered to set up a truly representative organisation to represent the great majority of ordinary boaters.

 

[Koeketiene]

Put in the right order

head - it's - arsehole - own - up

The RYA is so far out of touch with the needs/requirements of ordinary sailors, it might as well be on a different planet.
More RYS than Mud Creek SC /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Tranona]

Would be useful if you would define what the "needs of ordinary sailors" are - your evidence to validate what you say and then an assessment of where the RYA falls short.

In the absence of this all we have is a rant!

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Would be useful if you would define what the "needs of ordinary sailors" are - your evidence to validate what you say and then an assessment of where the RYA falls short.

In the absence of this all we have is a rant!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like the RYA to provide a definitive statement outlining the legal status of British cruising yachts in Europe. There was a recent attempt to provide that for Spain but the RYA refuses to divulge the source of its 'legal' advice. With no source, their 'advice' is of no more use than a chocolate teapot.

Why do you always attack those who are not happy with the RYA? Why not accept that some of us have been around the sailing lark for a good deal longer than you have, have been members and decided that it is not for us. If you REALLY want to support the RYA then start asking yourself WHY people feel negatively towards the RYA then LISTEN and address their concerns.

 

[Koeketiene]

- Red diesel abolition opposition (or lack thereof)
- eBorders opposition (or lack thereof)
- Getting HMRC to issue clear boat VAT status guidelines. A bit of paper to produce when abroad would have been particularly nice.
- Opposition to charges for anchoring in natural harbours (or lack thereof).
- There's been talk of some sort 'Light Dues' levy for yachts - RYA eerily quiet on the subject.

 

[wotayottie]

you posted a reply just as I asked what you wanted them to do! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Koeketiene]

[ QUOTE ]

OK Guapa. You obviously know what the ordinary sailor wants so please tell us.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you replied just as I replied to your reply /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OK Guapa. You obviously know what the ordinary sailor wants so please tell us.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

As you say, see above.

But to go through your points:

red diesel - opposed by the British government but withdrawn by the EU nevertheless. Do you really think that the RYA can do anything with the EU to get them to suddenly give UK boaters alone a derogation? Really? And to be fair to the RYA they did fight for the UK govt to support the red diesel case and they did succeed.

HMRC - the RYA have had endless discussions with HMRC who refuse point blank to help. HMRC take the view that if you have lost the original receipt its your problem. And in any case what makes you think that French customs, for example, could care a toss what HMRC say anyway? But again the RYA havent given up, continue chasing this one but havent yet won.

The RYA works quietly with government because it knows quite well that threats from a few thousand rich yotties wont have much effect other than for the government not to bother to talk to the RYA at all. You're obvioulsy not happy with a quiet diplomatic approach. What do you suggest as an alternative?

As a member (you have no right to moan if you arent) then you have the ability to make your points at the AGM.

 

[Tranona]

I agree. Just because people like Guapa want things to happen and don't it automatically becomes the fault of somebody else - and the RYA seem to be in his sights.

I would like not to have Gordon as PM. I would like not to have to listen to Vauxhall Corsas pounding out beat music in the middle of the night past my front door. In fact there are a lot of things I don't like and can't change and lots of things I like but can't have. Thats how life is and to think that ranting will change it is depressing.

Negotiation and representation is about the art of the possible and more is a achieved starting from that position than from outright opposition.

 

[alec]

[ QUOTE ]
- Red diesel abolition opposition (or lack thereof)
- eBorders opposition (or lack thereof)
- Getting HMRC to issue clear boat VAT status guidelines. A bit of paper to produce when abroad would have been particularly nice.
- Opposition to charges for anchoring in natural harbours (or lack thereof).
- There's been talk of some sort 'Light Dues' levy for yachts - RYA eerily quiet on the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK !
But would you agree, that too often we confuse complaining with taking responsibility for doing something about the problems that confront us ?

From my own experience, the more we complain the more hopeless we feel. Is it not better to make new decisions and follow them up with actions ?

As sailors, by definition of the sport/activity, we take on the responsibility of people who are willing to make decisions . I remember you saying how you sailed last season on your own to Ostende and back. A genuinely excellent achievement. I am very surprised that you seem to be giving up a bit.

 

[Tranona]

David, I guess I really will be senile before I can have a view if 40 years does not yet qualify me.

You know very well why the RYA cannot give you a definitive position on ALL the rights of a UK yacht and yachtsman in Europe. Firstly because there is not a definitive answer, secondly because it changes all the time, and thirdly because the rights of individuals and their yachts sometimes get intertwined and therefore it depends on individual cases. You also know that the RYA remit only covers UK based yachtsmen and many of the grey areas involve situations where individuals are not UK based.

I know why many people get disenchanted with organisations such as the RYA. It is often becuase they are unable to obtain answers to unanswerable questions and therefore blame the organisation for being unable to answer rather than accept that in some cases there is no answer.

Fortunately such people are usually a tiny minority, but regrettably often vocal! and the noise generated is way out of proportion to the size of the issue!

 

[rhumlady]

So if the RYA's remit only covers the UK then why are they involved in training in Australia, USA and else where? Yes I am a member and have been for 16 years but I'm not sure I get much value for my money.

 

[alec]

[ QUOTE ]
David, I guess I really will be senile before I can have a view if 40 years does not yet qualify me.

You know very well why the RYA cannot give you a definitive position on ALL the rights of a UK yacht and yachtsman in Europe. Firstly because there is not a definitive answer, secondly because it changes all the time, and thirdly because the rights of individuals and their yachts sometimes get intertwined and therefore it depends on individual cases. You also know that the RYA remit only covers UK based yachtsmen and many of the grey areas involve situations where individuals are not UK based.

I know why many people get disenchanted with organisations such as the RYA. It is often becuase they are unable to obtain answers to unanswerable questions and therefore blame the organisation for being unable to answer rather than accept that in some cases there is no answer.

Fortunately such people are usually a tiny minority, but regrettably often vocal! and the noise generated is way out of proportion to the size of the issue!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that most yotties feel that they are doing ok. It is easy to overlook other areas where they have made great inroads in giving people the opportunity to try sailing. Particularly the young. Not too many year's ago, most youngsters could not even find out if they could like sailing because there was no way in. Now there is , and the RYA has to take a lot of credit. There was also the psychological aspect of sailing only open to the well off. Again, I feel the RYA has broken down the barriers which has been a long haul. I think many of the challenges the RYA face are a long haul and can sometimes be frustrating.

 

[Anonymous]

You've missed my point. The RYA has published legal advice and yet they refuse to state its source. Unless one cites codes, laws or sources, "legal advice" is useless. There are many other issues that I have had with the RYA over the years, that just happens to be the most recent (and most serious). Let me stress -- they have REFUSED to cite the source of their "legal advice" regarding the use of yachts in Spain. Why?