RYA NHC - Could sandbagging be grounds for protest?

A

apward

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www.sailingmiles.com
So there's a claim that someones sandbagging in order to get their handicap pushed down before a certain event, (although why someone would want to cheat themselves like this is beyond me) but this is a point used to object to using the RYA NHC system.

I can see it now, lets write in the Si's that sadbagging is a protestable action. Hmm, must read the RRS to see if its already covered anywhere!
 
Its already covered under the anti cheating rule ISAF RRS rule 2, and it was just as available under PY as under the new handicaps.. Possibly more so since some clubs like ours did the race to race adjustment of PY on a cumulative basis which meant it paid to lose the first two races of a series when the handicap adjustments were much bigger than at the end of the series. Now the adjustment is race to race and so the same throughout the series.
 
apward said:
So there's a claim that someones sandbagging in order to get their handicap pushed down before a certain event, (although why someone would want to cheat themselves like this is beyond me) but this is a point used to object to using the RYA NHC system.
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Many athletes use "resistance training", why should sailing be any different?
 
Good argument for using a measured handicap system like IRC and one design, rather than the mickey mouse observed performance system.
 
No it isnt at all. Leaving aside that the sandbagging is done much more expensively in IRC by the boat designer, you can only compete and succeed in IRC by throwing money at the boat. New sails every year, boat stripped out of all weight , good trained crew - some people even have back up mother boats! And above all you need a racing boat - IRC does not work at all in mixed fleets of family cruisers and race boats. Which presumably is why its slowly dying off.

The point about PY and now NHC is that it is performance based. So everyone has a chance of winning but to keep winning you need to keep improving. Its about as mickey mouse as a golf handicap or a horse racing handicap
 
Do be successful in yacht racing it is only necessary to get 2 things right.

1. Sail the shortest possible course.
2. Sail as fast as possible.

Simples.

By its very nature as a secret rule IRC rates all comers. My most successful season was in a boat 30' long, 28 years old, raced double handed. Sure we had decent sails, kept the carp off and tried to point her in the right direction. If you want to do well, it takes application. Not like one of my friends who wants his local handicapper to allow for all the beer he's got onboard and his semi permanent cockpit shelter.

Performance handicapping works to certain extent in the dinghy fleets. Large numbers of one-designs obverved over many years has lead to some reasonably reliable figures. Cruising and racing yacht designs have not been built or raced in anything like the same numbers.
 
michael_w said:
Do be successful in yacht racing it is only necessary to get 2 things right.

1. Sail the shortest possible course.
2. Sail as fast as possible.
Click to expand...

A couple of observations occur.....

First, "In order to finish first, you first have to finish."

Next - and I ascribe this to the great Adlard Coles, no slouch when it came to crafty RORC race-winning tactics and stratagems - who ascribed it in turn ( if memory serves ) to Captain John Illingworth - "Make fewer mistakes, consistently, than your competitors."

But, of course, that kind of thinking is 'so last century'..... :cool:
 
Bosun Higgs said:
No it isnt at all. Leaving aside that the sandbagging is done much more expensively in IRC by the boat designer, you can only compete and succeed in IRC by throwing money at the boat. New sails every year, boat stripped out of all weight , good trained crew - some people even have back up mother boats! And above all you need a racing boat - IRC does not work at all in mixed fleets of family cruisers and race boats. Which presumably is why its slowly dying off.
Click to expand...
Our own IRC nationals class win - in a 7 year old cruiser racer with a 2 year old suit of sails - would seem to refute the throwing money part of that.

Won't argue that to win you need a good crew who practice regularly. Which is exactly as it should be. I have often seen "family cruisers" coming into the fleet, and we know that they won't stay long, because they won't be competitive. This is not (normally) because of an uncompetitive handicap, but because they aren't on the line at the start, have poor trim and are taking 2 minutes (not 2 boatlengths) to hoist the kite. Then you see them with a brand new main "to sort out the pointing issue" and you know it won't work, because it wasn't the sails in the first place. But polite suggestions that the money would be better spent on coaching are ignored. Often because this would mean giving up the golf on the saturday. Quite why people think they should be able to come into a sport and be instantly competitive with people who've been racing together for years and practice regularly is beyond me. We went to 4 nationals in that boat before we won one.

In my humble opinion IRC does a great job at what it is supposed to. PY is fine for non serious racing, but if you actually want to know who is sailing the boat closest to its maximum - rather than theirs - then it has to be a measurement rule. Or better yet OD with strict sail purchasing rules.
 
flaming said:
Quite why people think they should be able to come into a sport and be instantly competitive with people who've been racing together for years and practice regularly is beyond me.
Click to expand...
Good point. I compete very poorly as a novice in a sport in which a neighbour has been competing for over 50 years. If I was in the top 5 I'd wonder if it was much of a challenge.
 
Do be successful in yacht racing it is only necessary to get 2 things right.

1. Sail the shortest possible course.
2. Sail as fast as possible.

Simples.

Not exactly true for all , shortest course isnt always fastest , depends on boat , vmg is king :)
 
markhomer said:
Do be successful in yacht racing it is only necessary to get 2 things right.

1. Sail the shortest possible course.
2. Sail as fast as possible.

Simples.

Not exactly true for all , shortest course isnt always fastest , depends on boat , vmg is king :)
Click to expand...

I agree with your 2 points, but I was told a long time ago that one of the commonest reasons for losing a race was sailing the wrong course. I have certainly seen that borne out quite often in the 20 or so years that I raced regularly.
 
flaming said:
In my humble opinion IRC does a great job at what it is supposed to. PY is fine for non serious racing, but if you actually want to know who is sailing the boat closest to its maximum - rather than theirs - then it has to be a measurement rule. Or better yet OD with strict sail purchasing rules.
Click to expand...

In effect you are saying much the same as I am. I dont know any sailing pals with two year old sails - mostly they are 5 or even 10. None of the boats in our PY fleet date after the millenium. Mostly they have their sailing rubbish still on board rather than stripping things out. A proportion have bilge keels. Most are pure cruiser rather than cruiser racer. And mostly they struggle to get the same crew together three weeks running. But if you see the way they compete on the water or you talk the them in the bar afterwards, you would be in no doubt that their racing is serious and to describe it as non serious is a bit patronising.

And PY is not about "who is sailing the boat closest to the maximum". Its about giving everybody a chance but in a situation where to keep winning they have to keep improving. In our IRC fleet the same boats win all the time - the pure racing ones with fancy carbon sails etc. Where is the incentive to keep on racing when you know you are going to lose? Possibly thats the reason why the IRC fleet is shrinking and the PY is expanding.
 
We have been discussing this locally within the clubs and deduced not to adopt NHC immediately. At the end of the day (literally), an intelligent human being who knows what he/she is doing needs to make the handicap adjustments not a pre-determined computer programme.

In particular, there are too many tidal variations week on week, among other things and whilst not deliberately sand bagging, somebody who sticks his keel in the putty for 15 minutes, or is 5 minutes behind the start line, shouldn't benefit.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
And PY is not about "who is sailing the boat closest to the maximum". Its about giving everybody a chance but in a situation where to keep winning they have to keep improving. In our IRC fleet the same boats win all the time - the pure racing ones with fancy carbon sails etc. Where is the incentive to keep on racing when you know you are going to lose? Possibly thats the reason why the IRC fleet is shrinking and the PY is expanding.
Click to expand...

PY is dead and buried for keel boats, NHC has taken over.
 
moodyNick said:
PY is dead and buried for keel boats, NHC has taken over.
Click to expand...

Splitting hairs Nick. NHC is a very similar performance based handicap system to PY. The major difference is that instead of having to use Byron to calculate the trial PY number for a boat not on the RYA list, the RYA have constructed their own mathematical model and are now calculating handicaps albeit in a slightly different numerical format. If you use the normal IRC to PY conversion formula on the new NHC handicap numbers you will get very near to the old PY number in the PY format. It's a simple VPP based on brochure data and relying on the race to race adjustment to compensate for things like twin keels, folding props etc.

For example my NHC is 0.935 whereas my IRC would be 0.923 ( subject to weight and £130) whilst my PY according to Byron is 941. The conversion of my NHC to PY gives 921 ( grrh!) whilst the IRC to PY gives 935 . The difference is that my 941 PY takes into account a 135 headsail vs the standard 150 whereas the new NHS ignores that, relying on it appearing when the race to race adjustment is done

Your club is misunderstanding the adjustment system. Its designed to run over a long period and things like sticking your keel into the mud in one race only benefits slightly and for a short period. The problem you are giving yourself in depending on manual adjustments is the plague of favouritism or faces fits. Or even beery bribes. You really are asking for dissension in the fleet. But thats up to you. If you run an open race then you will have to use the NHC system - no choice. Inside your club you can base handicaps on beer drinking performance if you wish.

In our club the race officer has decided to stick with PY numbers but thats simply his god complex - wont take advice from anyone including the RYA. Irritating but he is excellent when it comes to setting race courses so we will have to put up with it / him.
 
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moodyNick said:
PY is dead and buried for keel boats, NHC has taken over.
Click to expand...

We have adopted NHC but are using start figures based on our PY numbers. As in: (1/PY)*1000.
By using the self adjusting handicap system it brings the corrected times much closer by the end of a 6 race series without sailing all year to correct the way the RYA has handicapped the eclectic range of boats we have in our Club.

Most of our racers would have given up racing had we imposed what the RYA have as handicaps - not quite what the RYA want.....
 
Well thats dodgy mathematically. I was told by the guy that did the work that the model used to calculate the NHC numbers was very similar to the IRC model and the data used was sales brochure data from the boat manufacturers etc.

If you take your formula and apply it to the handful of boats that had primary and therefore very well established PY benchmarks, you get the numbers in column C which are 16% higher than the correct NHC numbers:


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]C as% B[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]D as % A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]primary[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]PY converted[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]nhc converted[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]py no[/TD]
[TD]nhc no[/TD]
[TD]1/py*1000[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]using irc formula[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sigma 33[/TD]
[TD]929[/TD]
[TD].909[/TD]
[TD]1.076[/TD]
[TD]118%[/TD]
[TD]952[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]impala[/TD]
[TD]965[/TD]
[TD].892[/TD]
[TD]1.036[/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD]973[/TD]
[TD]101%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]achilles 24[/TD]
[TD]1079[/TD]
[TD].843[/TD]
[TD].927[/TD]
[TD]110%[/TD]
[TD]1041[/TD]
[TD]96%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]hunter 707[/TD]
[TD]928[/TD]
[TD].937[/TD]
[TD]1.078[/TD]
[TD]115%[/TD]
[TD]918[/TD]
[TD]99%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sonata[/TD]
[TD]1039[/TD]
[TD].831[/TD]
[TD].962[/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD]1059[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J24[/TD]
[TD]935[/TD]
[TD].905[/TD]
[TD]1.070[/TD]
[TD]118%[/TD]
[TD]957[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]101%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Obviously that will leave your club members happier - after all we all know that we lose races because our boat cannot possibly be sailed to its handicap unlike every body else's boat. :D But its really a bit of self deception and it wont help anyone to beat that Sigma 33 hot shot.

There is a well established and well correlated formula for converting IRC numbers into PY trial numbers . It is PY = 850*(IRC no) ^-1.187. Now given the source of the NHC numbers I have tried using this formula to convert NHC numbers into PY to see how close they are. The results are shown in column D . I apologise that I have converted NHC into PY but I just coulnt get my useless brain round using the formula in reverse to convert primary PY to NHC. Never mind, the numbers show this conversion formula is within 1% of the primary PY numbers with the exception of one very old boat which for some reason is 4% adrift. Bit better than 16% isnt it?

In the end your club can do whatever it wants for internal races, but I realkly dont see the point in creating your own false NHC numbers rather than just continuing with PY as you currently run it . After all you wont be able to use your made up NHC numbers in any open competition or at any other club will you?
 
Well thats wrong mathematically. I was told by the guy that did the work that the model used to calculate the NHC numbers was very similar to the IRC model and the data used was sales brochure data from the boat manufacturers etc.

If you take your formula and apply it to the handful of boats that had primary and therefore very well established PY benchmarks, you get the numbers in column C which are 16% higher than the correct NHC numbers:


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]C as% B[/TD]
[TD]D[/TD]
[TD]D as % A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]primary[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]PY converted[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]nhc converted[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]py no[/TD]
[TD]nhc no[/TD]
[TD]1/py*1000[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]using irc formula[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sigma 33[/TD]
[TD]929[/TD]
[TD].909[/TD]
[TD]1.076[/TD]
[TD]118%[/TD]
[TD]952[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]impala[/TD]
[TD]965[/TD]
[TD].892[/TD]
[TD]1.036[/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD]973[/TD]
[TD]101%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]achilles 24[/TD]
[TD]1079[/TD]
[TD].843[/TD]
[TD].927[/TD]
[TD]110%[/TD]
[TD]1041[/TD]
[TD]96%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]hunter 707[/TD]
[TD]928[/TD]
[TD].937[/TD]
[TD]1.078[/TD]
[TD]115%[/TD]
[TD]918[/TD]
[TD]99%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]sonata[/TD]
[TD]1039[/TD]
[TD].831[/TD]
[TD].962[/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD]1059[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J24[/TD]
[TD]935[/TD]
[TD].905[/TD]
[TD]1.070[/TD]
[TD]118%[/TD]
[TD]957[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]101%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Obviously that will leave your club members happier - after all we all know that we lose races because our boat cannot possibly be sailed to its handicap unlike every body else's boat. Certainly thats my problem. :D But its really a bit of self deception and it wont help anyone to beat that Sigma 33 hot shot.

There is a well established and well correlated formula for converting IRC numbers into PY trial numbers . It is PY = 850*(IRC no) ^-1.187. Now given the source of the NHC numbers I have tried using this formula to convert NHC numbers into PY to see how close they are. The results are shown in column D . I apologise that I have converted NHC into PY but I just coulnt get my useless brain round using the formula in reverse to convert primary PY to NHC. Never mind, the numbers show this conversion formula is within 1% of the primary PY numbers with the exception of one very old boat which for some reason is 4% adrift. Bit better than 16% isnt it?

In the end your club can do whatever it wants for internal races, but I realkly dont see the point in creating your own false NHC numbers rather than just continuing with PY as you currently run it . After all you wont be able to use your made up NHC numbers in any open competition or at any other club will you?
 
moodyNick said:
You cant use NHC numbers in any other competition, whether they are made up or not. ie one's handicap changes differently throughout a series according to who else is in it.
Click to expand...


From the RYA website http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/NHC.aspx

"NHC comes in two tiers; “Club” and “Regatta”.

“Regatta” is intended for a series of races held over consecutive day’s either over a weekend or a weeklong series. Entries in a regatta may not all be from the same club. The adjustments to handicap numbers in a regatta series will be relatively quick so as to get handicap numbers relatively accurate after the first couple of races.

When a boat takes part in an open regatta it will always start on its base number as it will be racing against a different group of boats and may be sailing at a new venue. After the regatta is finished its end handicap is discarded and it goes back to its club and picks up its club handicap number and continues club racing. "

 
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