RYA - National Handicap for Cruisers (NHC) new scheme replaces PYS

If the series runs for long enough you are probably right. The idea of fine-tuning a handicap seems perfectly reasonable. However to do it after every race is going to mean that everyone is going to win a race sooner or later however badly they sail.

Something had to be done I suppose, the PY number for cruisers was a nonsense. There were out and out bandit classes who only had to raise their sails to collect the silverware and classes who were wasting their time trying to compete. My PY gave me half the time allowance per hour, compared to several other club boats, that I would get under IRC (which I never felt was very generous either - but then who does?)

IRC was supposed to provide everyone with a chance of winning but in practice you can do a lot to buy your way to the front. Despite the rules being secret, modern race boats are undoubtedly optimised to IRC with big mains and non-overlapping headsails etc, A new suit of carbon sails complete with a range of headsails, code zero, asymmetric spinnakers etc attracts no penalty and a carbon rig very little. The result in most parts of the country has been small fleets of fairly optimised boats racing hard to a good standard with the occasional newcomer who gives it a go but soon realises that unless they spend a lot of money and keep a social secretary to organise the large crews necessary they are wasting their time.

PY was a reasonable way to go for club racers but the trouble was the numbers were hopelessly inaccurate and made no allowance for the optimised boat.

As I see it the trouble with the NHC is that there is no incentive to make any effort at all, just leave all the weight on the boat, hoist your knackered old sails, miss every windshift and fairly soon the software will give you a handicap you can win on.

As I understand it the American PHYRC is also a personal handicap but it is only altered periodically after a number of results and is only altered within a range for a given type of boat. Whilst not really addressing all the issues that sounds like a fairer way to go.

At the moment I can see a whole fleet of club sailors sandbagging desperately just before a big club race to get their handicap up then miraculously getting their act together on the day the silverware is awarded.
 
I've had a good look at the list and worked out the maths (well at least I can replicate it in a spreadsheet). The initial beta version of Sailwave that handles it has a few issues at the moment making it quite confusing

Once again my fat old Moody 376 seems to have acquired some racing pedigree that I wasn't aware of - now I'm faster than Sigma 33OD, 36, Etap 38i, First 35s5, Grand Soleil 39, Maxi 1100, Moody s38, Starlight 35, 39s, all Swans up to 40' and many more.

It's one thing knowing that you will 'catch up' by the end of a series but another thing knowing you will get hammered for most of the series.....


It looks to me like the RYA has taken handicap data from the current performance boats (as they all seem quite balanced) and just thrown in a few numbers for the rest. Our club has an eclectic mix of older boats and getting handicaps for some will be very difficult... I've heard that the technical office is inundated with requests for handicaps.

Cheers

Andy.
 
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Piddy said:
I've had a good look at the list and worked out the maths (well at least I can replicate it in a spreadsheet). The initial beta version of Sailwave that handles it has a few issues at the moment making it quite confusing

Once again my fat old Moody 376 seems to have acquired some racing pedigree that I wasn't aware of - now I'm faster than Sigma 33OD, 36, Etap 38i, First 35s5, Grand Soleil 39, Maxi 1100, Moody s38, Starlight 35, 39s, all Swans up to 40' and many more.

It's one thing knowing that you will 'catch up' by the end of a series but another thing knowing you will get hammered for most of the series.....


It looks to me like the RYA has taken handicap data from the current performance boats (as they all seem quite balanced) and just thrown in a few numbers for the rest. Our club has an eclectic mix of older boats and getting handicaps for some will be very difficult... I've heard that the technical office is inundated with requests for handicaps.

Cheers

Andy.
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You seem to have a very good point Andy, maybe a typo or something ? I think they have created the base data from IRC information, because it looks familiar and the RORC Rating Office have been involved in the discussions.
 
PeterR said:
If the series runs for long enough you are probably right. The idea of fine-tuning a handicap seems perfectly reasonable. However to do it after every race is going to mean that everyone is going to win a race sooner or later however badly they sail.
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You might think that but it doesnt work that way. The current PY system is supposed to be adjusted after every race in a series and whilst I accept that most clubs dont bother, ours does. And it doesnt give the result you fear. But our adjustment is cumulative so the new system might be different.

PeterR said:
At the moment I can see a whole fleet of club sailors sandbagging desperately just before a big club race to get their handicap up then miraculously getting their act together on the day the silverware is awarded.
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See above! We already have this issue. Best way to win a series is to come in the bottom half of the field for the first two races since the adjustments are bigger then than later on
 
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Port Edgar YC has used rolling handicaps for several years with adjustment after each race but reverting to standard for cup races, regattas and the like. Any handicap system is at best a compromise - the heavy boats are relatively slow in light and /or fluky winds but can come into their own in a blow, the light boats vice versa; the slower boats get hit harder by adverse tides. Hopefully it balances out over a series but in club racing you know who you have to do well again and anything that corrects the out and out handicap bandit or equalises the heavy spender could be good. Whether it encourages more boats to race, we shall have to wait and see.
 
moodyNick said:
Anybody else studied it in detail?
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No. But our fleet is so diverse (Newbridge Navigator to Dragonfly 920 trimaran!) that weather and tide have an enormous effect. So with this scheme if we have a light wind race round the cans in strong tides all the little boats (if they manage to finish) get their handicaps improved ready for the downtide passage race two weeks later. They all do well in that one, their numbers get adjusted again so they're ready to get thrashed in the next round the cans race. At the moment I've got enough to do without re-calculating handicap numbers every couple of weeks. I think we're sticking to the newly developed Hill Head Tidal Handicap System.
 
I don't have sailwave. I need a system that I can work out on a calculator in the pub or at the chart table at the end of a passage race.

Dare I suggest some mutually benefecient connection between the RYA and the software vendors?

But to be fair, from a quick look at the RYA website the formulae seem to be all there so I could write my own spreadsheet to do it.

The biggest problem for me is that none of these systems addresses the fact that slower boats sail further through the water in tidal conditions than faster boats. I accept that this is due to the unusual composition of our fleet and the waters that we sail in, so I'm happy to go my own way.
 
DJE said:
I don't have sailwave. I need a system that I can work out on a calculator in the pub or at the chart table at the end of a passage race.

Dare I suggest some mutually benefecient connection between the RYA and the software vendors?
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Hi DJE,

I don't think so as Sailwave (and the other suppliers) is free. Do you race for Fareham MB&SC? If so it will make the interclub calcs very onerous for whoever is doing them - and IIRC it is Farehams turn this year.

Cheers,

Piddy.
 
DJE said:
Apologies to Sailwave and the RYA for such a scurrilous suggestion.
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FFS RTFM , do you want somebody to come and read it aloud for you ?! ;)

A version of Sailwave will soon be released which incorporates the formulae. All you will have to do is take your laptop to the pub :(

My thinking is to keep running with an existing scheme for at least one series, and after each race in the comfort of one's armchair put the elapsed times into Sailwave, run the numbers and see how the results differ.

If you do it without anybody knowing, they are less likely to be sandbagging.
 
Done a bit of fiddling with the numbers ( just recovering from an illness and bored daft!) and it look to me as if the RYA have done a deal with the RORC to use their mathematical model, and input basic brochure data into that model to get and faux IRC type number. There is remarkable consistency between IRC numbers and the new RYA ones which average 2% higher on the sample of 19 boats that I used.

If I were the RORC I would be a bit worried. Why pay £70 per year or whatever to get an IRC number when you can use the NuPY handicap for free. Sure it wont affect the real RORC races but for clubs like us where the IRC struggle at times to get a fleet together, it will.

And I still dont see how the new system will deal with issues of adjustment for everything from twin keels to carbon sails. In regattas in particular, there will be an overwhelming advantage to tuned racing boats in race 1 and if they manage that advantage with care ( ie dont go flat out race 1) they will be able to keep some of it for the full series.
 
birdseye said:
Done a bit of fiddling with the numbers ( just recovering from an illness and bored daft!) and it look to me as if the RYA have done a deal with the RORC to use their mathematical model, and input basic brochure data into that model to get and faux IRC type number. There is remarkable consistency between IRC numbers and the new RYA ones which average 2% higher on the sample of 19 boats that I used.

If I were the RORC I would be a bit worried. Why pay £70 per year or whatever to get an IRC number when you can use the NuPY handicap for free. Sure it wont affect the real RORC races but for clubs like us where the IRC struggle at times to get a fleet together, it will.

And I still dont see how the new system will deal with issues of adjustment for everything from twin keels to carbon sails. In regattas in particular, there will be an overwhelming advantage to tuned racing boats in race 1 and if they manage that advantage with care ( ie dont go flat out race 1) they will be able to keep some of it for the full series.
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You're quite right Birdseye, I have been talking direct to RORC myself. They have been actively involved in the NHC discussions because they are seeing a drop off in people applying for IRC ratings and an overall reduction in cruiser racing generally - this is certainly true in our club. By helping set up the NHC they are hoping it will work as a 'feeder system' , as more people take an interest and then move up to IRC.

Only time will tell ....
 
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