Running Backstays

[Sealong]

Hello all
I have a 1998, Najad 331 (Ex. Army, 26 m sq. mainsail, 31 m sq. furling genoa, tiller steering, 19/20 fractional rig) which I have owned for a year and during that time I have completely ignored using the running backstays. I sometimes sail alone, and if not alone then only with one other person on board. The technical specifications brochure does not mention running backstays, so I suspect they were fitted as extra equipment.

My questions are:

1. Should I be using them ?
2. How do I set them up ?

Many thanks in advance
Sealong

 

[William_H]

If you can be sure that running back stays were not a part of the design and so many other examples without then go ahead and tie them back to near the mast so not needed and don't chafe the main sail. However if there is some doubt in your mind then you can have a policy of only using them in heavy conditions ie when there is heel on the boat. The whole question if you are not all out racing relates to the integrity of the mast. Does it have sufficient stiffness (dimensions) in the fore and aft direction without the runners. ie if you crank the (top) back stay on does the mast bend too much. All questions of an engineering nature.
Running back stays often have check stays attached. These are stays from midway up the runner going forward to the middle of the mast. So with the running back stay tight you have a pull back (support aft direction) to both the mast at the top of the forestay and support at the point middle of the mast. Occasionally ther emight be a baby forestay from this middle point which can be attached in heavy conditions. (or an attachment on the deck for a spin pole topping lift as a baby forestay.
The whole intention is to support the mast in the fore and aft direction both at the top of the forestay and mid point. Or even 2 places midway.
So if you have check stays these are semi permanently adjusted to pull the middle of the mast when the main running back stay is tight.
The running back stay is tensioned to reduce the bend of the mast (when top back stay is tight) and to apply extra tension to the forestay to reduce forestay sag and flatten the jib. One boat at our club originally had running back stays and had a load cell in the base of the forestay to set up runners to a consistent tension. However your running back stay set up ie number of purchases on the tackle and the presence of a suitable sized winch would all indicate what tension you need. Runners are released on a tack on the old windward side and tightened on the new windward side. Needs a dedicated crew man to care for runners if you are doing frequent tacking.
Now I am familiar with 2 boats in our club with this concern. We race in a confined area such that fast tacking is needed. The first boat a Farr 40 of Fastnet fame of 1989 was all out racing with runners and the load cell. The owner modified the hull to add chain plates aft of abeam the mast by about 60 cms and modified all the spreaders to aft swept shape so mast mid points were pushed forward by the spreaders and back by the intermediate stays. Threw away the runners. Imust say I don't think he really trusted the rig as i never saw it really flogged as in lots of heel in strong winds.
The other friend had a similar problem with runners. ie not enough crew to work them. After all my radical suggestions like fitting aft mounted chain plates etc as above or just shortening the mast to bring top back stay closer to forestay. His mast to me looks a bit small in the cross section. Hence perhaps needing lots of stay support. His answer was to abandon the check stays and shorten the boom cut down the foot of the main sail. He can now sail with a bit of wind by reefing the main down to the point where he can leave running back stays tight when tacking the ail and boom swinging inside the runners. Is he ok without check stays off the runners? Time will tell.
It is all a matter of engineering design or if you don't have that just plain courage to test it out your self. I think discipline yourself as to wind strength is the answer. ie use the runners when there is real wind.
Just as an after thought one radical boat (30ft) in our club has no back stays of any sort. Just hugely swept aft spreaders and cap shrouds. Mast is pretty beefy looking in fore and aft dimensions. Certainly allows for lots of main sail roach. Was going to be a hot racing design but failed.
So I can't answer your question and would not want to be responsible but hope I might give you something to think about ol'will

 

[Star-Lord]

Hello all
I have a 1998, Najad 331 (Ex. Army, 26 m sq. mainsail, 31 m sq. furling genoa, tiller steering, 19/20 fractional rig) which I have owned for a year and during that time I have completely ignored using the running backstays. I sometimes sail alone, and if not alone then only with one other person on board. The technical specifications brochure does not mention running backstays, so I suspect they were fitted as extra equipment.

My questions are:

1. Should I be using them ?
2. How do I set them up ?

Many thanks in advance
Sealong

I Googled Najad 331 running backstays and found this Najad 331 - anyone?

 

[corinthmistral]

My boat is the same (Dutch yacht, similar to a Najad.) Our boat does not have swept back spreaders, unlike most similar boats - they are perpendicular, hence the running back stays are theoretically needed in heavy weather. So, to start with, suggest check your spreader angle and go from there.
We rarely need to use them but in heavy weather I have seen the (massive Selden) mast pant which was slightly unnerving so I did put them on then. That said they are easy to use and don’t interfere with tacking angles so I view them as belt and braces and nice to have.

 

[Solent sailer]

we have an Ovni with running back stays, the advice we were given was to use then if the wind was >F6 especially if using the stay sail as this doesn't go to the mast head so the running back stays helped to stabilize the mast. (the Genoa is mast head rigged and therefore connect to the mast in the same place and the normal back stays)

 

[Sealong]

Thank you all for posting the helpful comments.
The spreaders are swept back and I have no intention of racing, so my priority is safety and longevity. Nonetheless, my suspicions are confirmed by the above answers: that in light winds they are not required but good to set them in a strong breeze or more. Which is fortunate because I am more likely to be out windsurfing in those conditions that on my Najad !

 

[Rappey]

Do you have another forestay for a storm jib ?
A solent rig setup eliminates the need for running back stays but a proper cutter rig often requires them to support the mast at the point where the inner forestay connects.

 

[blush2]

Hello all
I have a 1998, Najad 331 (Ex. Army, 26 m sq. mainsail, 31 m sq. furling genoa, tiller steering, 19/20 fractional rig) which I have owned for a year and during that time I have completely ignored using the running backstays. I sometimes sail alone, and if not alone then only with one other person on board. The technical specifications brochure does not mention running backstays, so I suspect they were fitted as extra equipment.

My questions are:

1. Should I be using them ?
2. How do I set them up ?

Many thanks in advance
Sealong

When we bought Blush she was set up as a racer with straight spreaders, running backstays and checkstays, normally raced with a crew of eight. Our plan was to go long distance with just the two of us.

We decided to modify the rig so the two of us could sail her so we got a design drawn up for swept back spreaders with shrouds taken to the outside of the hull, doing away with the checkstays.

In light airs the backstays are not critical, above 20 knots they are. She has a 3/4 fraction and the backstays meet the mast at the same point as the forestay. The first reef brings the main below the backstays so they can both be wound on and left in place when tacking.

The helm operates the backstays. My other half single hands quite easily.

The trick is to have the lazy stay ready to go as the boom comes over, pulling it in to follow the boom whilst releasing the other one. We have to winch our stays in very tight because the mast is very bendy. Take care not to get a backstay the wrong side of the boom.

One of the benefits of our setup is that once the first reef is in, effectively we have a masthead rig. We do have a rope tweaker backstay as well to twist off the top of the sail.

 

[RJJ]

I used to sail those 331s at Kiel in early 2000s. I don't remember anything beyond the standard rig here which doesn't detail either running backstays "runners" or checkstays "checks"; they used to trade the fleet every 3 years so perhaps the spec varied.

https://najad.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Najad-331-Technical-Specification-1.pdf

Checkstays and running backstays look similar but differ in their function. You have advice above that relates, if I understand correctly, to three different types of rig. None of it's wrong, but I am unsure which is the "right" advice for your boat. Runners are primarily to tension the forestay; checkstays are primarily to restrict mast bend which keeps the mainsail luff curve, and (probably more importantly) stiffens the mast and stops "panting".

Tips to avoid frigging around with your rigging

(1) If it's a masthead rig, they are probably checkstays. Typically they meet the mast not far from the middle. Their function is to keep the mast straight (which can help keep the mainsail powered-up)stop the middle of the mast "panting" and also to preserve rig tension in the cap shrouds. Here's how it works: When you whack the backstay on (seeking forestay tension) and compression induces a bit of bend in the mast, you would get a few mm of slack in the shrouds which is undesirable. So the checkstay helps keep the mast straight and thus preserves rig tension setting in a seaway (rather than the rig flexing at the bottom of a trough, just when you don't want it to); I would also wonder (I'm not an engineer) if the "panting" does any good for the longevity of your turnbuckles/toggles etc. But if it's a strong stiff mast you can probably get away with never using them; plenty of people do.

(2) If it's a 3/4 fractional rig and they meet at the same height as the forestay, they are "runners" whose function is to tension the forestay. Often the mast will be a bit bendier; in this case, tensioning the backstay tends to bend the mast and does little to the forestay. If the mast is super-bendy, like a 1980s 1-tonner, then the runners actually hold the mast up and gybing can be interesting. Just to keep it interesting there may also be a checkstay, which then provides exactly the same function described above at (1); the checkstay may often be attached to the runner but separately adjustable.

(3) On a 19/20 rig (per the specification, and which I also have on my Dufour) I have never seen a runner or checkstay. Typically the spreaders are sufficiently swept aft that the checkstay isn't required; the whole point of the design is that the backstay both tightens and bends the mast in proportionate measure. However looking at the Najad spec, it does look as though they are much less "swept" than on my boat. So perhaps it was felt desirable to have a checkstay. In which case I would reckon you deploy them (or not) as per (1).

(4) Finally, just to keep it simple, you could be rigged for an inner forestay for a staysail. If so, then you might need runners in order to tension that forestay. I have a removable inner forestay for a storm staysail, but as mentioned my spreaders are sufficiently swept back that it works well; also it's a "Solent" rig so the inner forestay runs nearly to the cap shrouds (i.e. not parallel with the primary forestay.

 

[RJJ]

http://www.seldenmast.com/files/595-540-E.pdf

 

[William_H]

Just one comment to the OP. He says he will not be racing. I would warn that nay situation where you are caught with too much sail too much wind will load the rig in a way that is just as bad as nay racing situation. This overload is what can over load the rig. So do be careful to reef early. Both jib and main. ol'will

 

[Sealong]

I used to sail those 331s at Kiel in early 2000s. I don't remember anything beyond the standard rig here which doesn't detail either running backstays "runners" or checkstays "checks"; they used to trade the fleet every 3 years so perhaps the spec varied.

https://najad.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Najad-331-Technical-Specification-1.pdf

Checkstays and running backstays look similar but differ in their function. You have advice above that relates, if I understand correctly, to three different types of rig. None of it's wrong, but I am unsure which is the "right" advice for your boat. Runners are primarily to tension the forestay; checkstays are primarily to restrict mast bend which keeps the mainsail luff curve, and (probably more importantly) stiffens the mast and stops "panting".

Tips to avoid frigging around with your rigging

(1) If it's a masthead rig, they are probably checkstays. Typically they meet the mast not far from the middle. Their function is to keep the mast straight (which can help keep the mainsail powered-up)stop the middle of the mast "panting" and also to preserve rig tension in the cap shrouds. Here's how it works: When you whack the backstay on (seeking forestay tension) and compression induces a bit of bend in the mast, you would get a few mm of slack in the shrouds which is undesirable. So the checkstay helps keep the mast straight and thus preserves rig tension setting in a seaway (rather than the rig flexing at the bottom of a trough, just when you don't want it to); I would also wonder (I'm not an engineer) if the "panting" does any good for the longevity of your turnbuckles/toggles etc. But if it's a strong stiff mast you can probably get away with never using them; plenty of people do.

(2) If it's a 3/4 fractional rig and they meet at the same height as the forestay, they are "runners" whose function is to tension the forestay. Often the mast will be a bit bendier; in this case, tensioning the backstay tends to bend the mast and does little to the forestay. If the mast is super-bendy, like a 1980s 1-tonner, then the runners actually hold the mast up and gybing can be interesting. Just to keep it interesting there may also be a checkstay, which then provides exactly the same function described above at (1); the checkstay may often be attached to the runner but separately adjustable.

(3) On a 19/20 rig (per the specification, and which I also have on my Dufour) I have never seen a runner or checkstay. Typically the spreaders are sufficiently swept aft that the checkstay isn't required; the whole point of the design is that the backstay both tightens and bends the mast in proportionate measure. However looking at the Najad spec, it does look as though they are much less "swept" than on my boat. So perhaps it was felt desirable to have a checkstay. In which case I would reckon you deploy them (or not) as per (1).

(4) Finally, just to keep it simple, you could be rigged for an inner forestay for a staysail. If so, then you might need runners in order to tension that forestay. I have a removable inner forestay for a storm staysail, but as mentioned my spreaders are sufficiently swept back that it works well; also it's a "Solent" rig so the inner forestay runs nearly to the cap shrouds (i.e. not parallel with the primary forestay.

Thanks RJJ
That is really useful and comprehensive information.

 

[Sealong]

I used to sail those 331s at Kiel in early 2000s. I don't remember anything beyond the standard rig here which doesn't detail either running backstays "runners" or checkstays "checks"; they used to trade the fleet every 3 years so perhaps the spec varied.

https://najad.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Najad-331-Technical-Specification-1.pdf

A document on elastic !
That technical specification document is the one I uploaded to the Najad Owners website myself.