Rules of the road (for some)

[Artie]

I recently travelled on Condor Ferries fast ferry to Weymouth from Guernsey and back. They display a route position relayed all over the ship on tv screens. The display clearly shows the rhumb line and the position of the vessel The projected course and the actual route cut across the Separation Zone just North of Alderney at an angle of some 70 degrees instead of the supposed 90. I asked why this course was taken and told that they were allowed to cross at this angle because they are a fast ferry!
I have never seen dispensations like this in the Collision Regs - any one know different?


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[Gludy]

Veerrrry intersting!

What they say does not make sense. In a traffic system all other vessels using it would have to know about their 'special case'. I frankly do not beleive it.



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[qsiv]

I agree - and asked the same question.

I'm even more concerned at their behaviour in fog (as we have today in the Islands). With visibility down to 100 metres, they continue to arrive and depart on schedule.

At 40 knots, assuming the other vessel is stationary, they will cover the visible distance in 6 seconds. Remembering that radar is only allowed as an aid to navigation, I cannot see how it can be safe to navigate so fast, and earnestly believe that it contravenes ColRegs - to such an extent that I am really of the opinion that a prosecution should be brought.

The concept of these vessels running around at such speeds beggars belief - no responsible motor boat skipper would run at 20 knots in such conditions, and I fail to see why a commercial operator should be allowed to do so. Arguments that involve radar in them are necessarily invalidated in my view - particularly as the very presence of fog will degrade the capability of radar due to clutter.

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[hlb]

I dont think anyone said anything about fog. I cant see that there doing anything wrong, if they can see what there doing. Does anyone stick to exactly 90deg??

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Haydn

 

[qsiv]

My point is not only do they cross the TSS at an angle, making no effort whatsoever to cross at 90 degrees, but also as a separate issue they maintain speeds of 40 knots in visibility as low as 100m. In my view it is wrong, and I also believe it to be illegal, and if the new corporate manslughter law is enacted I would hope it would lead to a conviction.

To have these big boats charging around in congested waters at 40 knots as just damn irresponsible.

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[Moose]

But they do have incredibly good radars.

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Moose

 

[qsiv]

but IRPCS 6 a iii Requires vessels to proceed at a safe speed bearing in mind "the manoeuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;"

In respect of radar assisted navigation 6 b iv requires the Master to take account of " the possibility that small vessels, ice and other large floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;"

So in circumstances of reduced visibility I fail to see how 40 knots can ever be safe, even with military standard radar. Not only are yachts / MoBo notoriously poor targets (and it is the responsibilty of the ferry to see the yacht, not the responsibility of the yacht to be seen), but we also have naval vessels that are all but invisible to radar. I remember at the start of the Route du Rhum a few years back being puzzled that we couldnt see the start boat on our radar despite seeing her as plain as day. It was only later doing some research that I found she was (if I remember) the Lafayette - the first French Stealth Frigate. Our radar (which resolves lobster pot markers and seagulls at 1/4 mile) never ever got a return. Most impressive.


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[qsiv]

Lets put another way! We're all guilty of tying auto pilots to a pair of waypoints and asking it to steer us between the two. Just like the ferry skipper does. So we are all following the same groove in the ocean (just take a trip from St Helier to St Malo, and notice how many ferries you have to dodge).

How would you fancy walking along a motorway carrying a radar reflector, with a lorry coming the other way at 40 MPH, navigating using radar only. How relaxed would you be? Me - I'd rather he slowed down a lot!

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

The Traffic Separation Scheme to the north of Alderney does'nt begin until Casquets so maybe the course they chose didnt actually cross the official TSS so no necessity to cross at 90deg

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

I agree with you but do any commercial vessels slow down in fog. What about the fast ferries out of Dover crossing the busiest shipping lane in the world? They all rely on sophisticated radars for collision avoidance but God help any small boat which doesnt show up on the screen
Frankly, with the high incedence of fog in the Eng Channel, I'm amazed that there are'nt more accidents. I mean some of them cant even avoid that bloody great stranded car carrier even though its fully buoyed

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[Deleted member 478]

I was taught that in fog, head for the closest port ASAP because the fast ferries etc aren't likely to see you on radar.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> <font color=blue>- still showing at a computer near you</font color=blue>

 

[longjohnsilver]

They might not see you, but oif you have radar you sure as hell will see them! Might come as a shock though seeing something charging across the screen.

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[rich]

Re:LETTER TO H,M.

Dear sir,

I would like to make a formal complaint about a Condor ferry and the seamanship of it's Captain.
On Thursday 8th May I was travelling from Jersey to Granville in my wooden motor cruiser Hermees. The top speed of my boat is 7-8 knots, and although I keep a good look out, it leaves me with limited options should I need to get out of trouble quickly. At 18.25 I was just approaching the N-E Minquiers Buoy and was aware of a Condor coming up fast behind me, and as it was to go around the buoy to make it's way to St. Malo, and I was to go straight on, I tried to contact it by radio to inform them of my course. However I received no answer. I had just got past the buoy when to my alarm the Condor swerved at full speed between the buoy and my vessel. The gap between the buoy and Hermees was less than 50 yards, and the wash from the Condor could easily have swamped the open cockpit of my boat from the stern. However I immediately turned to face the wake, which was difficult as there was hardly and room to turn, due to the Condor rounding the buoy directly behind me.
My boat leapt up into the air as we hit the wake, but luckily my wife and 7 year old daughter and myself were unharmed. I again tried to contact the Condor by radio to complain, but had no reply - I hope that they keep a listening watch on Channel 16 even if they never reply to other boats.
I then contacted Jersey Radio on 16 and informed the duty officer of the recent danger, and he suggested I get in touch with the harbour office.
I realise that Condor Ferries have a schedule to keep to and are a commercial company, but it would not have made much difference to his arrival time if he had slowed down for a minute to allow us to clear the buoy. As it is I would classify this on a road as dangerous driving, and probably even worse at sea, as we were a long way from assistance, had we needed any.
I would appreciate a reply to this e-mail, and should you need any more details I can be contacted on xxxxxx

Yours sincerely,
What do the forum think, was i right to make a fuss!




<hr width=100% size=1>rich )

 

[Steve_D]

Re:LETTER TO H,M.

Have you had a reply yet?

They do seem to have a somewhat arrogant attitude. Perhaps if they allowed a more reasonable schedule they would :-

1 - get in on time
2 - not have to thrash the guts out of the thing to get in on time, and
3 - have a bit more regard for other craft

REgards

Steve D

<hr width=100% size=1>"If I see another chuffin smiley I'm gonna hit something"

 

[qsiv]

Re:LETTER TO H,M.

Absolutely -and I keep meaning to ask HO for an exemption certificate to the speed limit in the Inner Roads as are issued to all ferries and fishing boats ...

OTOH, they have been good enough to navigate around me when I was drifting along with a kite up just beyond Noirmont - when I gave them a shout on the radio, they did answer (but I did use Ch8, as an intership or bridge to bridge channel)

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[rich]

Re:LETTER TO H,M.

From HM,yes, Condor NO!

<hr width=100% size=1>rich )

 

[Artie]

The ferry goes straight through the southern part of the Trafic Separation Zone.
May I suggest you get your chart and try to draw a line from the top of the Little Russel or even from west of the Casquets to Weymouth without crossing the area.


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[Deleted User YDKXO]

I dont think you're exactly right. I'm looking at a chart now and a straight line from the E Shambles buoy in Weymouth Bay to just west of the Casquets light may just touch the eastern extremity of the TSS but they could easily shape a course to avoid this. If the ferry went east of Casquets, I dont think they would enter the TSS at all

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[trev]

There is nothing in the rules which says you MUST cross at right angles - it merely states that 'as far as practicable' cross as nearly as poss to right angles.
The ferry is quite within the regulations.

<hr width=100% size=1>Trev

 

[Steve_D]

Re:LETTER TO H,M.

'Sounds about right

Steve D

<hr width=100% size=1>"If I see another chuffin smiley I'm gonna hit something"