Rules of Road Question

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ozzyb

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Both Yachts are sailing

Wind is SW 3-4.

Boat A is steering approx 180 on starboard tack spots Boat B off Stb'd bow approx 400m away.

Boat B is running approx 070 also on starboard tack, if they both hold there course there is risk of collision.

They get close enough to shout, who should give way?
 
Same tack, windward boat is give way vessel....... so in your scenario boat A should stand on, boat B give way.

Having said that, boat A should be prepared to take action if boat B does nothing.

Sounds like they're both in the wrong if they're close enough shout at each other! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I agree with Rustyknight completely - particularly about the shouting range in a 3-4 - don't waste time shouting or figuring out who's who just do something to avoid a prang!

Why do you ask anyway? is this part of an insurance claim? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I have this feeling of déja vu. If boat B has a gybe preventer set, is flying a spinnaker or is a heavy gaff rigged vessel then boat A would be churlish to shout anything and should luff up quietly and wave cheerily. Of course, if either is racing then the racing boat has shouting rights, especially if at the back of the fleet.
What kind of anchors are they carrying?
 
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If boat B has a gybe preventer set, is flying a spinnaker or is a heavy gaff rigged vessel then boat A would be churlish to shout anything and should luff up quietly and wave cheerily.

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That could be risky. Boat B has the wind over its starboard quarter. Boat A is on starboard tack. It seems clear that Boat A is the stand-on vessel and that Boat B could turn more downwind to pass behind.

Rule 8(a) states: "Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part..."

If Boat A luffed up in a well-intentioned attempt not to be churlish at the same time as Boat B turned downwind, the consequences could be disastrous especially if Boat B had a gybe preventer rigged and was unable to unrig it in time to regain full control.

If I was in Boat B, I would be tempted to argue in the subsequent proceedings for negligence that Boat A had fatally miscontrued the ColRegs and mistakenly thought that he should follow rule 12(a)(iii) despite being on starboard tack.
 
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If boat B has a gybe preventer set, is flying a spinnaker or is a heavy gaff rigged vessel then boat A would be churlish to shout anything and should luff up quietly and wave cheerily.

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That could be risky. Boat B has the wind over its starboard quarter. Boat A is on starboard tack. It seems clear that Boat A is the stand-on vessel and that Boat B could turn more downwind to pass behind.

Rule 8(a) states: "Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part..."

If Boat A luffed up in a well-intentioned attempt not to be churlish at the same time as Boat B turned downwind, the consequences could be disastrous especially if Boat B had a gybe preventer rigged and was unable to unrig it in time to regain full control.

If I was in Boat B, I would be tempted to argue in the subsequent proceedings for negligence that Boat A had fatally miscontrued the ColRegs and mistakenly thought that he should follow rule 12(a)(iii) despite being on starboard tack.

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Eh? Surely A is stand-on because B is windward. But B may gybe if he turns downwind but could head upwind to pass ahead of A? I dunno - I'm a stinkie but not sure if you've got that right.
 
Just drawn it up in a diagram and I think I'm correct, but happy to be proved wrong for my own education!

As you say, boat A is stand-on as to leeward. He should hold his course.

Boat B is windward and should alter course if necessary. He could consider doing as you suggest, and turn more to starboard (onto a beam reach, say) in an effort to pass ahead of A. I think that would be a risky move as he would still be the windward boat and boat A would still be stand-on. If boat B miscalculated that manouevre, there would still be risk of a collision.

I'd say boat B should turn downwind - there is the risk of a gybe as you say, but that's his problem surely, and not so as to override the ColRegs? His alternative, if he really couldn't deal with the risk of a gybe would be to turn all the way through starboard and up into wind, probably resulting in a tack right round?
 
At 400m with both boats at 5kts there is about 1.5 minutes before collision (if my working of the sine rule is correct). Plenty of time to wave cheerily and be acknowledged. But it is possible boat B may be singled handed and below sitting on the loo, caught too short to raise the "not under command" day signal (or perhaps it's behind the spinnaker).

Of course boat A is "stand on" but where's the fun in that? Now about the anchors ...
 
Well, naturally, one would have recourse to slinging the kedge out of the stern of either boat in a last-minute attempt to emergency-brake one's way out of a collision situation. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'd recommend a Rocna... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Just drawn it up in a diagram and I think I'm correct, but happy to be proved wrong for my own education!

As you say, boat A is stand-on as to leeward. He should hold his course.

Boat B is windward and should alter course if necessary. He could consider doing as you suggest, and turn more to starboard (onto a beam reach, say) in an effort to pass ahead of A. I think that would be a risky move as he would still be the windward boat and boat A would still be stand-on. If boat B miscalculated that manouevre, there would still be risk of a collision.

I'd say boat B should turn downwind - there is the risk of a gybe as you say, but that's his problem surely, and not so as to override the ColRegs? His alternative, if he really couldn't deal with the risk of a gybe would be to turn all the way through starboard and up into wind, probably resulting in a tack right round?

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Sorry - misread what you said. All agreed A is stand on. If B did harden up onto broad/beam reach, would the extra speed on that point not allow him to pass safely ahead of A (not sure of the relative speed difference between running and reach).

And what would A be more likely to do if in doubt? Turn downwind or head up (and possbly have to tack)? If the former then collison risk maintained but surely more natural to head upwind a little to pass astern?
 
No worries, they're always b*****s, these questions, and of course there's rarely a handy whiteboard to hand in the cockpit just when you need it to start drwing pictures on!

To answer your question, my experience has been that boat B will try to cross ahead quite often on a busy day in the Solent. If I am boat A, then my personal rule is that I will always luff up. Sometimes boat B does cut it a bit fine in that situation - and so becomes dependent on my co-operation - but I will delay luffing up until the last minute (just to be sure he really is trying to cross ahead) and pass very close to his stern (not to make a point or anything /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).
 
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Sorry, what's this 'risk of a Gybe'?

A gybe is a normal sailing manouvre. Boat B should gybe and pass behind boat A a boat A is the stand-on vessel.

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I didn't say 'risk of a gybe'. I know it's normal but any change of tack is preferred avoided if it's not the one you want to be on - no?
 
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..... on a busy day in the Solent.

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If it's in the Solent that's totally different. Both will be motoring so A is the give way vessel.

Not so sure about the Rocna for braking - perhaps a heavy fishermans would be better?
 
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Not so sure about the Rocna for braking - perhaps a heavy fishermans would be better?

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For goodness sake, not another flat-earther who can't accept that technical design will beat obsolescent weight every time. Rocna will be along with some kind of chart to prove it all to you shortly.
 
What happened, Boat B hardened up and passed 20m ahead of Boat A.

Boat A did all the shouting, it was the Solent, it was crowded.

OK, I was alone on the helm. I'm guilty, perhaps I should have passed behind or am I just used to sailing in crowded waters.

If I was racing, No apologies.
 
You did the right thing IMHO if you managed 20 metres clearance. On a busy day in the Solent it's almost like a special sub-rule to rule 12 that you pass in front and boat A luffs up to pass behind. Just try not to miscalculate it (or do it in front of a Scumsail).
 
Seems fair enough to me Bernie. (How are you BTW?). 20m at ~5kts is a good few seconds clearance so no need for dramatics from the other skipper.
 
Boat B gives way, worried about a gybe, what's wrong with tacking round and then tacking back, you'd have slowed down enough for boat A to be gone?
 
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but I will delay luffing up until the last minute (just to be sure he really is trying to cross ahead) and pass very close to his stern (not to make a point or anything

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Yes - and thinking about that, if it seems B is looking to pass ahead, it must give you more control to keep that heading because, if risk of collision increases, you can always luff right up and be almost certain to avoid collision with no worse outcome than an unwanted tack. Whereas, if you'd headed down, and the same risk of collision developed, you could end up not being able to duck behind the stern so having to crash gybe. Yes?
 
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