Never Grumble
Well-Known Member
Surely if you are 5NM away you don't need to call anyone on VHF you can just make an alteration of course. Or are you calling to try and influence the other vessels actions.
Rule 17 -- Vid of a close encounter....
- Thread starter Mark-1
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capnsensible
Well-Known Member
still not in the same league as Enid Blyton.Anyway, despite a slow start I got 12 pages of debate out of it so I'm happy.
Never Grumble
Well-Known Member
and no one is any the wiser
sfellows
Well-Known Member
As a stand on vessel it is prudent and safe to keep your course until it is clear that the other vessel is not taking the correct action as required by the Regulations and a collision is likely.
Calling the "give way" vessel up when 5NM away after an AIS CPA of <0.5nm to ensure:
1) they have seen us and
2) will take avoiding action
is not influencing other vessels' actions.
If the advice is for every vessel to alter course when on a potential collision course (at 5NM), irrespective of rights of ways is a recipe for disaster. Because then there are no rules.
It would also make crossing the shipping lanes in the English channel in a small yacht that is sailing almost impossible.
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sfellows
Well-Known Member
I think we are agreeing! But others in this thread seem to think that the MGN is saying this, and have quoted the MGN in full to disagree with my approach which is simply:
1) If an AIS target has a CPA of <0.5NM AND is around 5NM away AND I am the stand on vessel then
2) I call up the said vessel on VHS to ask their intentions and request them to alter course.
It appears that 2) in this approach is causing difficulties to some forum members, because the MGN is implicitly critical of using VHF to avoid collisions.
On all the occasions this has happened only 1 vessel refused to take action. We altered course when we were closer (1.0NM) to avoid any risk of a collision.
requiem
Well-Known Member
My suspicion would indeed be a narrow channel situation. They tend to lead to such encounters.
An engrained habit, from the specific cases* the Rules proscribe. Even so, here the ship altering to port would have been unwise for those very reasons: the geometry is the same as a crossing situation.
In open water (i.e. not in the Solent or other confined space like a TSS), I grow concerned if a ship has not altered by that point. Being slow, my ability to open up the CPA starts to become very limited. It also becomes more disruptive if the table is set or there's a pot on the stove. Here calling the other vessel allows time to gather information whilst still preserving time to act.
In confined spaces things are quite different, and you can expect to be in much closer proximity. I think it's important to treat the two separately.
* Restricted visibility, and for the stand-on power vessel in a crossing with another power vessel.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
Can you give any examples of others in the thread suggesting or implying one should never use VHF for collision avoidance?
T'was I who quoted MGN (though, contrary to your assertion, not in full). I certainly have neither said nor thought that one should never use VHF for collision avoidance. I think one should avoid using it as a matter of course - evidence shows it can lead to accidents and, as others have pointed out, in crowded waters ships' crews may already have their hands full - and that seems consistent with the Guidance.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Perhaps there is confusion over who should not turn to port.
The stand on power vessel should not alter course to port to avoid a collision in a crossing situation with another power vessel, which is probably the point being made by the "experts" you refer to. This is because the give way power vessel may suddenly turn to starboard to avoid a collision in preference to turning to port. Why? Because Rule 15, for motor vessels crossing, state that if the vessel is on your starboard side (tip, you see a port light, red, stop), it is the stand on vessel, and as a give way vessel should not try and cross ahead (if a risk of collision exists), which means as give way, it could turn to starboard to comply, but if the stand on, then decides to turn to port, a bad situation, that was recoverable, has just increased the odds of colliding, and might not be recoverable.
I agree that the sailing vessel tacking to port was the correct manoeuvre to avoid a collision in the context of what the video shows.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
An interesting suggestion (that comment is code for something!)
Personally if circumstances really dictated that it would prudent to call another vessel I would never ask them to alter course. I would be asking them what their intentions were..
PS in my 50 plus years of boating I’ve only called another vessel regarding IRPCS twice. The last time was to point out to a ship that I was motor sailing (and hence a power driven vessel) and would be altering course to avoid him. (My motor sailing cone was obscured from his view by our genoa.)
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Oh the irony!
I’m currently on passage between Weymouth and Gibraltar and I’ve just passed South of Oussant. There was French ship on my port side and I wondered what he was doing as he was getting closer and showing no signs of altering and was changing course in a rather bizarre way.
Anyway, he called me up saying he was a survey vessel and if possible he would prefer not to alter course and could I help please? As it happens I spent a very happy year a little while ago working for the UK hydrographic office on their survey ships and I’ve got a slight inkling as to how complex their procedures are and of course I was very happy to oblige. I initially turned to starboard thinking we were going much faster and I’d get ahead of him, but our speeds were fairly closely matched so I did a 360 and came round behind him.
No day shapes to show that he was restricted by his surveying! Don’t you love the French…
I then went up to the fly bridge to take a better shot.
So that’s the third time I’ve used VHF. for collision avoidance.
I’m currently on passage between Weymouth and Gibraltar and I’ve just passed South of Oussant. There was French ship on my port side and I wondered what he was doing as he was getting closer and showing no signs of altering and was changing course in a rather bizarre way.
Anyway, he called me up saying he was a survey vessel and if possible he would prefer not to alter course and could I help please? As it happens I spent a very happy year a little while ago working for the UK hydrographic office on their survey ships and I’ve got a slight inkling as to how complex their procedures are and of course I was very happy to oblige. I initially turned to starboard thinking we were going much faster and I’d get ahead of him, but our speeds were fairly closely matched so I did a 360 and came round behind him.
No day shapes to show that he was restricted by his surveying! Don’t you love the French…
I then went up to the fly bridge to take a better shot.
So that’s the third time I’ve used VHF. for collision avoidance.
Jmacd
New Member
Calling to point out you were motoring.
This strikes me as a very good point. If motoring with a sail up. A vessels status re stand on or give way. Could be appear ambiguous, confusing or just plain wrong to another vessel. Clarifying your status and intentions probably appreciated.
Otherwise, I've never really felt the need to use the radio to call. Just make my actions obvious or readily apparent to the other vessel.
Although I did have an old handheld tuned to the VTS channel I often kept in the cockpit and found quite handy. Unfortunately the transmit button was NFG.
My recent sailing. Far from the maddening crowd. Only a couple of other vessels, A minke, some gannets, some porpoise and a couple of Sea Eagles. They are quite big.
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RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Or displaying the cone, apex down, day shape for motor sailing would likely make matters clear for other vessels, without VHF interventions. At night, motoring lights would be shown, not sailing lights.
The IRPCS are quite simple and in my experience, actions are clear enough, in most situations, without VHF contact. Post number 250 is a good example of none compliance by the survey vessel, assuming it was restricted in manoeuvring by the survey equipment.
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Mark-1
Well-Known Member
And that's why there is no need for court cases to determine what they mean and IRPCS questions on the Internet are quickly and succinctly settled with everyone's agreement. Nobody can ever make any money selling a book on their meaning or even sell an RYA course explaining them because they're so clear.
Contrast them to the RRS. The RRS are updated every 4 years, each time becoming clearer and clearer. (Including one complete rewrite.) Night and day difference.
The IRPCS are a bloody mess of weasel words, non existent definitions and unwritten assumptions.
Jmacd
New Member
Yes, Sometimes these things just get forgot.
No point in getting all bent out of shape about it. Until someone loses an eye.
Some years ago I saw a ship in an unusual location, Thought I wonder what he is doing over there. For some strange reason I had the radio on.
Turns out they had just run aground. There was all sorts of fuss about it, Radio calls tugs and oil spill response vessels(fortunately not required)
They never did put the shapes up. Or turn the running lights off until the next day.
I suppose they had other things on their mind at the time.
It is also possible, It may not actually have fully qualified as restricted. Even so alteration may have messed up the run, requiring a do over. However why not cut a working boat a break? Particularly if they ask nicely.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I was very happy to give the survey ship a break. However if he’d put day shapes up indicating he was surveying he wouldn’t have needed to call me up!! He was very polite though.
There must be something in the air around here as we’ve just had another incident. A moderate size tanker was coming from our port side. We were stand on vessel and the cheeky so and so called us up and asked us to get out of his way. Of course we obliged but…
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Is a survey ship entitled to "restricted in ability to manoeuvre"? Prefer not to is not the same as can't
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I had 2 interactions today. Couldn’t be arsed to get the jib out, loads of tide propelling us to our objective, so we sailed on just the main with the engine on idle, to assist us through the tacks. Cone displayed. Crossed a Trinity House ship, properly under way, he stood on, as you’d expect. No deviating, hooting, just a straight course, we tacked behind him, no sweat. Shortly after, we were on Starboard, came across a port tacker. No jib, cone up, I am the give way vessel, no contest. I made an early, large, alteration to port, to cross behind him. He also altered course to port. I went round furtter, so did he. So I came hard on the wind and put the hammer down. Amazingly, he then altered course again, to starboard! I learned some new words from Mrs C, who can be a stickler for the rules. Without her, I certainly wouldn’t have bothered with the cone. It seems nobody takes any notice anyway. And isn’t having only the main up usually a giveaway that someone is motorsailing?
westhinder
Well-Known Member
In my experience survey ships never show dayshapes to indicate restricted maneuverability. There is a lot of survey activity going on off the Belgian coast for planned windfarms and powercables and the survey ships inform VTS of their intended work and safe distance off if required, but if you have missed that broadcast you are unaware. When the survey ship is a mobo coming straight at you doing 15 knots you might wonder what’s going on
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
No reason why they shouldn’t put RAM up if they’re working? More entitled than the fishing boats entering Sullom Voe in Shetland who’ve taken to putting two red up indicating not under command to circumvent the local bylaw that they need to give away to the oil vessels. (That’s got that off my chest…!)
I honestly can’t remember what the Royal Navy survey vessels do. Despite spending a year of my life writing on them and actually driving a survey vessel gathering data of a second world War rack in the Mediterranean near Corinth.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Seen lots that have further south.
