creeks
Well-Known Member
The Thorn channel in the Solent at its narrowest is not much over 300 metres wide. In your scenario you're drifting in a strong tide. There's not much room for error if you notify the wrong ship!
Rule 17 -- Vid of a close encounter....
- Thread starter Mark-1
- Start date
ylop
Well-Known Member
Well I don’t think it absolutely proves you broke Rule 7 - it could be you broke one of the other rules! But barring some mechanical failure if you are underway and under command and then collide with another vessel which was also underway and under command - you’ve both f**k*d up. Which rule is then somewhat irrelevant.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Yes, given AIS is analogous to the collision systems used on aircraft, can you imagine a popular light air craft area trying to justify turning off or ignoring their collision warning system because there’s so many planes around and the routes of the big ones are obvious as they all go to the airport…
A coroner might conclude that we wouldn’t let people race on open roads or do stunt flying without closing air space so racing shouldn’t take place in active shipping lanes!
requiem
Well-Known Member
Of course, road racing and stunt flying without closures puts non-participants at significant risk. A containership is at much less risk.
From a bit of reading, the courts tend to consider that if you made incorrect conclusions regarding another vessel's course or distance or so forth, but could have had more accurate numbers if you checked your instruments, then you have a problem. Here again I'll note that relying purely on calculated CPA or automated warnings is not the best use of the equipment; it's letting the machine think for you.
I'd argue a far more common fault relates to Rule 8, particularly in not adhering to the "any action taken to avoid collision shall, ... be positive, made in ample time ..." bit.
One might keep a proper look-out, but then fail to take sufficiently-effective avoiding action. An example case would be The Topaz, where the OOW saw the other ship, recognized the situation, but failed to make a large enough alteration of course in good time ("In the circumstances I cannot find any failures of lookout appreciation as constituting an independent cause of the collision"). The other vessel took 80% of the fault for being the give-way vessel and having no look-out at all.
From a bit of reading, the courts tend to consider that if you made incorrect conclusions regarding another vessel's course or distance or so forth, but could have had more accurate numbers if you checked your instruments, then you have a problem. Here again I'll note that relying purely on calculated CPA or automated warnings is not the best use of the equipment; it's letting the machine think for you.
I'd argue a far more common fault relates to Rule 8, particularly in not adhering to the "any action taken to avoid collision shall, ... be positive, made in ample time ..." bit.
One might keep a proper look-out, but then fail to take sufficiently-effective avoiding action. An example case would be The Topaz, where the OOW saw the other ship, recognized the situation, but failed to make a large enough alteration of course in good time ("In the circumstances I cannot find any failures of lookout appreciation as constituting an independent cause of the collision"). The other vessel took 80% of the fault for being the give-way vessel and having no look-out at all.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Anyway, given that 90%+ of the boats racing in Cowes don’t have AIS, some have no instruments at all, being open dayboats, the conclusion has to be that the mk1 eyeball and common sense are quite effective. The only collision in recent times was a bigger boat that could easily have had AIS fitted.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
I can't help thinking that having a brain fitted would have been more useful in that particular case.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Perhaps he was staring at his AIS.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Supply chain issues mean not every vessel can have one!
ylop
Well-Known Member
Same thing - you are in danger of getting into a “I can driver safer if I don’t look at my speedo” argument. If you can’t cope with the information that’s coming in and balance the different sources of information perhaps you shouldn’t be there or should have additional watch keeping resources - we would find it thoroughly unacceptable for a large commercial vessel to either say “there was so much traffic I couldn’t look out the window because the AIS was so busy” AND unacceptable for them to say “I couldn’t look at the AIS because there were so many yachts outside the window”.
ylop
Well-Known Member
That’s an interesting claim. If we exclude open boats then on west of Scotland my guess is perhaps 40% of sailing yachts, maybe more, have AIS transponders. I’m guessing that well over 50% have AIS receivers.
If you were making rules today it might be that to sail in shipping lanes you’d be required to have both vhf and ais, or be escorted by boats that do.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
My main racing class is 115 years old. Class rules prohibit any instruments except a compass. Solent racing for 115 years, I don’t think they’ll change.
I have no issue with accepting data from multiple sources, but it is, around here, for all the reasons stated, necessary to know what to expect, keep a very good lookout both for large boats and small, especially the small one and act accordingly. That often means a tack every 2 mins or less. Tacking up the green in Cowes week make that 15 seconds.
flaming
Well-Known Member
I could not disagree more strongly.
If you're becalmed with a rope round the prop in the channel in the Solent in front of a ship then a broadcast on either 12 or 16 is 100% the right thing to do, and a DSC call to the ship is 100% the wrong thing to do.
Firstly - to make the DSC call is considerably more time consuming than picking up the mike, pressing the button and starting talking. Your setup might be more sophisticated than mine, but I'd have to find the right ship on the plotter, select it and bring up the dialog box read the MMSI number from the plotter, go down below to the VHF, go through the menus to make a DSC call, type in the MMSI number, all before I could then make the DSC call. All without making mistakes in a high stress emergency situation. Even if your setup is more sophisticated than that, you're still pushing buttons whilst I'm already talking.
And then, I STILL cannot actually talk to the ship unless they accept the MMSI call. And does anyone actually think that accepting an MMSI call would be a priority on a large ship's bridge whilst they're transiting the Solent with a pilot on board, especially if they're concerned about some broken down yacht in front of them? I don't.
And even if they do accept the call promptly, I'm now talking to the ship only on a working channel where nobody else is listening. And the ship can do what exactly? In parts of the Solent, most notably the Thorn channel and turning around Calshot spit, a large ship has exactly zero options to avoid you. If you happen to be in the center of the channel they simply do not have the space to avoid you. So to help they then need to call the pilot boat if present, or someone else to help. So it took longer for you to call them, they had to accept the call before you could talk, and even then they now need to get in contact with someone who can actually do something. And all that has taken how long exactly?
And your point "especially when you don’t know what channel they’re on" is nonsense. You KNOW they are on 16. That is literally the point of 16. Inside the Solent you ALSO know that they are monitoring 12, as that is a requirement.
No, sorry, you're just completely wrong here. If I had a situation inside the solent where I decided that communicating was my best option then I'm going to be announcing to everyone on 16, possibly repeating the call on 12 to make sure VTS, who's job managing traffic actually is, are aware, though I'm pretty sure that they also monitor 16. And in ONE call on 16 I've alerted everyone who needs to know, the ship, the pilot boat, Solent Coastguard, VTS and maybe even that passing motorboat who could help by dragging me out of the way. No DSC call does that.
This is nothing whatsoever to do with fixed mindsets. It's simply to do with recognising when a bit of kit is appropriate to the situation. DSC calling ships has a place, absolutely. That place is in open waters, a reasonable time ahead of the CPA where the Ship has options to avoid you, and a discussion of intentions is sensible and useful.
Exactly the same with AIS. It's a flipping brilliant bit of kit in open waters, having it transforms how easy it is to navigate commercial traffic on a channel crossing etc - even compared with radar. Inside the Solent in good Vis? Not necessary, and really doesn't add much to my situational awareness.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Big ship AIS must be a nightmare within the Solent on a busy day. As they travel up the Solent plenty of yachts and motorboats will be on courses that would take them within the Ship's "safety zone" if they continued their course for the next 10 minutes. But of course most of them are actually miles away and change course well before they get anywhere the ship.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
As we all know, the RRS are updated every 4 years so they've become clearer and clearer as time goes on. (Noticably clearer since I was a lad.)
In contrast the IRPCS are obfuscated and frequently use weasel words. I understand it's hard to get international agreement to changes but what's there is not remotely fit for purpose. Unless you like Internet bickering, which I do.
They need regular rewrites, just like the RRS. Nobody can be expected to get something this complicated correct first or second time, and technology changes.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
The rules are simple. It's just that some types of people can't resist trying to make them complicated.
In my opinion.
In my opinion.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
A dozen or so years ago, approaching the Solent via the Needles channel I took a screen grab. With the plotter zoomed out to a useful level for navigation there was very little to see other than AIS transmissions. Contrast that with an hour or two earlier in open water when AIS had been extremely helpful.
I expect it’s more so nowadays with the increased uptake of AIS.
Never Grumble
Well-Known Member
many years ago I spent quite a bit of time in the solent on the bridge of a frigate doing navigation training. Whilst not a big ship and thus plenty of space for us I'm glad it was pre AIS as I can just imagine how much that might increase the bridge team work load for very limited benefit. I'm also imagining the confusion as a yacht calls up and you then spend another frantic minute or two trying to establish which yacht it was as opposed to looking out the window. In restricted visibility AIS alongside radar would no doubt have a greater use but you would expect traffic to be much less. I tend to work on anticipation of shipping movements ... oh here comes the 1300 cross channel ferry, he'll be turning into Portsmouth, lets keep away from where they will be going, or they will be turning before they reach us, there's the IOW ferry going to Fishbourne he's going through the Swashway etc. that said this comes with experience.
winch2
Well-Known Member
For those espousing the benefits of AIS/comms in a confined busy shipping area. Get yourself up onto the bridge of a 1000+ft container ship/tanker. Im afraid looking down you will see that we are just specs of annoyance in front of a thing that has no manouverability at all. Best practise is to keep well out of the way and if that means holding station for as long as it takes then that is what one must do. The wind is either your friend or your enemy. I would never chance my arm across a busy shipping lane with flukey wind in case the donk goes south hoping I can 'persuade' a Captain to change course.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
I'm reminded of the old joke about the blind men and the elephant. One touches its side and says, an elephant is like a wall. The next touches a leg and says, no, it's like a tree, and the third touches the trunk and says, no, it's like a snake. All correct, in a way, but all missing the overall view.
It's about situational awareness. AIS, radar and all the other toys have their uses, but none is any use if relied on without something to give the overall picture, and that's the skipper's intelligence. The toys may add something, or they may be completely misleading. In the Solent, in decent visibility, I reckon it's very often the latter, and in bad visibility, I still wouldn't rely on them entirely. Radar may not pick up a small launch, so I still need my eyes outside, and without it, I'm going to hightail it to the 5m contour.
It's about situational awareness. AIS, radar and all the other toys have their uses, but none is any use if relied on without something to give the overall picture, and that's the skipper's intelligence. The toys may add something, or they may be completely misleading. In the Solent, in decent visibility, I reckon it's very often the latter, and in bad visibility, I still wouldn't rely on them entirely. Radar may not pick up a small launch, so I still need my eyes outside, and without it, I'm going to hightail it to the 5m contour.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Interesting to hear it from the ship's perspective. On three occasions I've heard yachts call ships. On two there was no reply, on one there was the single word reply 'roger'.
At the time I thought the ships were just avoiding an argument over VHF (you could tell from the context what the calls were for) but your post has made me realize that the ships likely didn't have the capacity to manage the call. Much safer for the ship to ignore communications and focus on piloting the ship at a very busy time.
Which renders the whole debate about calling ships a bit moot.
