Rule 17 -- Vid of a close encounter....

[flaming]

The word you’re looking for is seamanship. We’re not all racers trying to ignore other vessels.

Just for emphasis. We are talking about using DSC to call a large merchant ship WITHIN THE SOLENT, to discuss its intentions.

And you want to use the word "Seamanship" to describe that......

Astonishing.

I mean, good grief.....

What could possibly be unsure about its intentions? It's a big ship proceeding in a marked channel. It's not about to hang a left and anchor in Osbourne bay for a cuppa for crying out loud. Seamanship is about being able to asses a situation and take the right course of action, not deferring your answer whilst you phone a friend. If you are AT ALL unsure of a large ship's intentions in a close quarters situation inside the solent, taking the time to call the large ship and ask their intentions rather than immediately setting a course for the nearest water too shallow for a large ship to follow you is, for the avoidance of all doubt, ENTIRELY the wrong decision, and demonstrates a massive lack of seamanship.

And of course it's not as if all of their intentions aren't already broadcast on Ch12 if you were concerned. Monitoring that channel is indeed seaman like. Calling them is the literal opposite.

 

[flaming]

We’ve been told, as a club, not to set them, and if we really feel we must, to ask for permission from the port authority, Southampton presumably, I have not personally done it. We have an annual race called the Prince Consort charity race. You could previously guess the course, but we haven’t been sent round it for 3 years.

We were definitely sent round it last year, and also at the nationals the year before. Not this year yet that I recall.

 

[winch2]

Sorry to sound like a whiney old Matron but the idea that some people muck about off Egypt Point relying solely on a screen in real time to tell them they're safe, as has already been said is quite terrifying and suggests poor seamanship at best.
It is imperative as skipper that you fully understand the workings that go on inside the 'Precautionary Area' between EP and Calshot and that the lookout protocol onboard your vessel understand this too.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We were definitely sent round it last year, and also at the nationals the year before. Not this year yet that I recall.

As I say, don’t know how strict they are if you ask. I assume it depends on shipping movements, but you certainly need to have permission now. We used to be set various trinity house marks in Cowes week, now it’s rare. Peel Bank a couple of times last year is itI think.

 

[Stemar]

ISTM that good seamanship in the Solent is having your eyes open and brain in gear at all times, plus a knowledge of where the big boys like to play.

If I'm going across from Portsmouth to Ryde, and I see a biggun looking as if, as my AIS would probably tell me, it's heading for the Folly, I know he's going to be heading my way, so it's time to think about whether I can get across in front, or whether I want to hang around by Gilkicker for a bit. Same if there's one off Bembridge. It's also worth remembering that, after W-bound ships go through the forts, they jig north round N Sturbridge - I got caught out by that, once before I was properly familiar with the area. Then, there are always the smaller ones who have to be different, and take the N Channel...

 

[lustyd]

We are talking about using DSC to call a large merchant ship WITHIN THE SOLENT

Yes we are. You seem to be determined to prove that AIS has no value at all and that you should never ever call a ship within the Solent. I hate to tell you but the Solent is only special to Solent sailors, it’s just another waterway. It’s not even busier than most of the places we’ve sailed.

You’re looking like a quite poor skipper here just to prove a point. There are a thousand reasons one might call up a ship inside or outside the precious Solent. If you can’t think of one then that’s on you. If you can’t find value in AIS in busy waters then that’s also on you.
The rest of us are happy making the most of our investments in both kit, training, and experience.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yes we are. You seem to be determined to prove that AIS has no value at all and that you should never ever call a ship within the Solent. I hate to tell you but the Solent is only special to Solent sailors, it’s just another waterway. It’s not even busier than most of the places we’ve sailed.

You’re looking like a quite poor skipper here just to prove a point. There are a thousand reasons one might call up a ship inside or outside the precious Solent. If you can’t think of one then that’s on you. If you can’t find value in AIS in busy waters then that’s also on you.
The rest of us are happy making the most of our investments in both kit, training, and experience.

I must remember to call the ships we pass in Cowes week. I’m sure they’d be delighted to have the same conversation with all 50 of my fellow class sailors.

 

[lustyd]

I must remember to call the ships we pass in Cowes week. I’m sure they’d be delighted to have the same conversation with all 50 of my fellow class sailors.

I can’t understand your problem. I’m not suggesting everyone call all the time, I’m stating that good skippers can and should call when necessary. Good skippers understand there are scenarios that warrant it.
As I said, if you can’t think of a single situation where you’d need to call a ship then that’s your lack of experience and imagination.

 

[Momac]

As Mrs Merton always said: "Let's have a heated debate!"

He stubbornly hung on then did a U turn. So was it Starmer ot Trump at the helm.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

He stubbornly hung on then did a U turn. So was it Starmer ot Trump at the helm.

Who “stubbornly hung on”? I think that’s the whole point of this thread, we don’t know which boat was stand on based only on the video clip.

I think the sailing yacht was skippered by Starmer as he flip flopped and almost flipped again. Trump would just have done the U turn.

 

[flaming]

Yes we are. You seem to be determined to prove that AIS has no value at all and that you should never ever call a ship within the Solent.

I have never said AIS has no value. I have said it has extremely limited value WITHIN THE SOLENT, or other similar waters, on clear days. To the point where despite having it on my plotter visible to the helm I cannot conceivably imagine using it to judge a close quarters situation with a large ship in good vis. It's just completely unnecessary and, as discussed, will frequently give incorrect information. And I really, really doubt that anyone with any real experience of those sort of waters would argue with me.

And yes, I absolutely cannot conceive of a situation, inside the Solent on a clear day, where using DSC to call a large merchant ship to discuss their intentions is even remotely possibly a good idea. Feel free to prove me wrong by imagining such a situation. Even if I was becalmed in front of a large ship with a rope around the prop, I still wouldn't use DSC, that would be a call on 16, as I'd want Solent Coastguard, the Ship, the pilot vessel and anyone close enough to help by towing me out of the way ALL to know at once. Not just the ship by using DSC to initiate a call on a working channel. And if I'm not becalmed and engineless, or dismasted, or without steering, or anything else that makes it somewhat of an emergency situation, but am in a perfectly functional boat with wind and/or a working engine, why on earth am I talking to the ship instead of removing myself from the clearly marked channel? What are you possibly expecting it to say that would change your decision about getting out of its way?

As it happens I HAVE used AIS in anger inside the solent. But it was NOT a nice clear day. It was a foggy morning with perhaps 100m vis trying to get from Hamble to Cowes for the start of a JOG race. After using AIS to check there was nothing coming up the North channel we stayed outside of the main Thorn shipping channel until at West Knoll, and then stopped and used the AIS to very carefully check the channel inbound and outbound - coupled with listening to CH12 - to make sure it was clear of any large ship movements before we left the comparative safety of the shallow water and entered the main channel. As it happens it was clear, so off we went. If there had been a ship, I certainly wouldn't have been looking at the CPA figure, as given as how we were stationary in about 5m of water it would have been meaningless, I'd have been looking at where it was on the plotter to ascertain when it was past and it was safe to go.

But that is COMPLETELY different to the dozens and dozens of other times we have done that trip in good vis, and had to assess if the ship in the channel was going to be an issue for us.

Honestly, if you see a ship in the Solent on a nice sunny day and your first reaction is to look at your AIS... Scary.

 

[benjenbav]

Because it's a catch all for "crashed into something that you shouldn't have". And encompasses not only seeing it, but also avoiding it.

Rather like driving without due care and attention covers a broad spectrum, so does failing to keep a proper lookout, whilst at the same time linking to a specific offence under Colregs Rule 5.

In the Hanne Knutsen case the prosecution wanted to prove that the defendant had done something wrong and the purpose of the proceedings before the court was just that, not to establish what Mr Wilson should have done instead.

 

[lustyd]

And yes, I absolutely cannot conceive of a situation, inside the Solent on a clear day, where using DSC to call a large merchant ship to discuss their intentions is even remotely possibly a good idea.

PLENTY of scenarios. Engine failure in strong tides while a ship is bearing down on you. The ship only has one way to know what you’re up to and playing Chinese whispers via the coastguard and/or VTS is a waste of time, especially when you don’t know what channel they’re on. DSC lets you call them and choose a channel to do so, where you can then advise them of what’s going on.
So what would be your solution, pretend it’s not happening, or ask the CG to speak to the stranger for you? Or perhaps a Mayday/pan pan so you can spend a few minutes discussing number of lifejackets on board?
It’s scary how fixed some mindsets are here.

 

[Mark-1]

PLENTY of scenarios. Engine failure in strong tides while a ship is bearing down on you. The ship only has one way to know what you’re up to and playing Chinese whispers via the coastguard and/or VTS is a waste of time, especially when you don’t know what channel they’re on. DSC lets you call them and choose a channel to do so, where you can then advise them of what’s going on.
So what would be your solution, pretend it’s not happening, or ask the CG to speak to the stranger for you? Or perhaps a Mayday/pan pan so you can spend a few minutes discussing number of lifejackets on board?
It’s scary how fixed some mindsets are here.

In that case better to use Ch16. No advantage in concealing the situation from other vessels and many advantages to making surrounding vessels aware.

(Commercial Vessels still keep watch on Ch16.)

 

[ylop]

I’d call a ship anywhere if I felt the need to discuss their intentions. Are you saying you’d bury your head in the sand and pray rather than call another person? They’re perfectly friendly folk, I promise.
Thus far I’ve not had the need within the Solent as the rules make things clear usually, but there are always exceptions as the recent thread on wash demonstrated.

And yes, I absolutely cannot conceive of a situation, inside the Solent on a clear day, where using DSC to call a large merchant ship to discuss their intentions is even remotely possibly a good idea. Feel free to prove me wrong by imagining such a situation.

I don’t sail in the Solent, but just to offer a thought that I have twice called large vessels to tell them MY intentions when something odd had happened* and I was potentially going to do something that would cause them concern. Both got very professional, helpful and reassuring responses. I didn’t use AIS/DSC to call them though because it was easier to call on the relevant VTS channel.

If that's the case we're never going to find out what rule 7 requires in terms of AIS because the incident that caused the court case will, in itself, prove rule 7 was broken so no need to go into detail about the nature of the watch keeping.

I'm still unconvinced, I'd like to see a source for it.

I don’t know that we need a source to know what the words “all available means” mean - it doesn’t mean use the AIS and don’t look around you any more than it means if you have have AIS you should ignore it.

I have never said AIS has no value. I have said it has extremely limited value WITHIN THE SOLENT, or other similar waters, on clear days. To the point where despite having it on my plotter visible to the helm I cannot conceivably imagine using it to judge a close quarters situation with a large ship in good vis.

I am a bit sceptical about AIS in good weather/vis in general without the solent clutter, especially because not every vessel (including me) transmit. Although it could be useful for identifying the name of vessels if you don’t have the luxury of hearing them on VTS.

* 1. A jammed furling line meaning I was no longer heading for the marina and was about to cut across their bow to get sea room to fix it
2. A narrow channel where sailing vessels are expected to have engines ready and give way to commercial traffic, but when I started it I got zero revs.

 

[Mark-1]

I don’t know that we need a source to know what the words “all available means” mean - it doesn’t mean use the AIS and don’t look around you any more than it means if you have have AIS you should ignore it.

I meant a source for the idea that a collision in itself proves you broke Rule 7. I've certainly heard it said but I'd like to see that written down somewhere credible. (It's been discussed before maybe someone posted a link then.)

As for the meaning of "all available means" in this context, I've already posted my thought on that in post 83.

 

[lustyd]

In that case better to use Ch16. No advantage in concealing the situation from other vessels and many advantages to making surrounding vessels aware.

(Commercial Vessels still keep watch on Ch16.)

I disagree. Announcing a general yacht broken down to everyone requires everyone to plot your position and work out if it affects them.
Calling a specific boat and telling them specifically confirms that that boat knows they and you have an issue to resolve.
I’m not talking about a mayday situation, just a developing issue that can easily be resolved with communication and collaboration.
I don’t understand the resistance to communicating directly. A ship is just a bigger boat full of humans. As I and others have said, the result of a direct call is always professional and pleasant.

 

[creeks]

PLENTY of scenarios. Engine failure in strong tides while a ship is bearing down on you. The ship only has one way to know what you’re up to and playing Chinese whispers via the coastguard and/or VTS is a waste of time, especially when you don’t know what channel they’re on. DSC lets you call them and choose a channel to do so, where you can then advise them of what’s going on.
So what would be your solution, pretend it’s not happening, or ask the CG to speak to the stranger for you? Or perhaps a Mayday/pan pan so you can spend a few minutes discussing number of lifejackets on board?
It’s scary how fixed some mindsets are here.

What would you do if there were two ships bearing down on you from opposite directions, possibly with others behind them as well, a not unlikely situation in the Solent?

 

[lustyd]

What would you do if there were two ships bearing down on you from opposite directions, possibly with others behind them as well, a not unlikely situation in the Solent?

What a ridiculous scenario, they’d then be on collision course with one another, surely?
Why try so hard to avoid communicating properly with those around you? I’m confident that the folks on shipX would prefer “shipX I’ve broken down and am in your path” to guessing what’s going on while you yell into the aether.

 

[requiem]

Not in the Solent, but I have had occasion to call a ship on 13* to clarify intentions (as in, "yes, we are aware of you and no, we aren't going to cut across your bow").

Regarding AIS, it's absolutely useful in dense situations, even when the channels have bends in them. Looking only at the CPA and speed numbers is not the most effective use of AIS.

I prefer to watch the course vectors, as it's quite simply to mentally bend them to follow any bends in the channel or other expected turns. Is that precise to the metre? No, but it needn't be, since this is AIS and one should allow for error. But, it gives me a reasonable approximation of where the other vessel will be in X minutes time, as well as where I will be.

*Over here, when in VTS areas ships are required to monitor 13 and the VTS frequency; monitoring 16 is only possible if they have a 3rd radio.