benjenbav
Well-Known Member
On Waverley, can the direction of the paddle wheels be reversed independently?
Rule 17 -- Vid of a close encounter....
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Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Just up the thread, someone kindly informed me that they are permanently fixed, and that running astern on one and ahead on the other can result in a capsize.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Ah, thanks. Apologies for not paying attention.
Fond memories of a trip to Lundy on Waverley. Would have been 1980 or ‘81, iirc - in company with my then 80 y/o grandmother, who scrambled up the hillside on the island like someone half her age.
bikedaft
Well-Known Member
IIRC they considered fitting a bow thruster to the Waverley, but there is bugger all of her underwater there to fit one?
She does have a bow rudder too.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Both actually, whilst the Waverley has had money from the Heritage Lottery fund, it also got a sizzle donation from Scotland’s biggest every Euromillion winner: Waverley steamer kept sailing by Euromillions winner - BBC NewsYou mean lottery losers !
flaming
Well-Known Member
Counter point - the ship that recently cut the class 40 in half.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
Which is why you trust, but verify, using your own AIS, though TBH, AIS is a nuisance in the Solent and other crowded waters because, if you set it to give useful alarms mid-Channel, it'll be bleeping constantly.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Anyone relying on AIS inside the Solent to judge collision situations in good visibility is frankly dangerous.
The Class 40 in question did use their AIS, they identified a collision risk and called the ship, who confirmed that they would alter course. But then came back and said "you are dishonest, you're not a sailing boat, you take me for a piece of shit" and resumed his original course. By which time, doublehanded doing 18 knots with the kite up in fresh breeze it was too late for them to do anything.
What happened on the CIC Normandy Channel Race - Tip & Shaft
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
That is a *way* better story than I expected when you first mentioned it!
‘You’re not a sailing boat, you take me for a piece of shit’ -- I'd say by any definition of the words in Rule 17 that releases them from any obligation to stand on.
Am I misinterpreting or did the ship turn its AIS off?
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Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
It turned it’s AIS off, and failed to respond to a Mayday.
winch2
Well-Known Member
I agree. It worries me hugely that there are people out their bobbing along with their only point of reference to the big outside world being a screen full of arrows and numbers. A bit of friendly advice. Head up, and on a swivel, eyes open and learn to judge whats going on in your immediate to medium distance environment. I think they used to call it seamanship.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
My screen full of info is in the outside world. Where are your paper charts?
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
“Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.” Colregs, Rule 7
Therefore, monitoring AIS is one of the means to make that determination.
No idea why this is in bold, the editing options have disappeared
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Of course it’s one of. But it’s also not obligatory equipment for all craft. We are obliged to use the old fashioned method of watching for the lack of a bearing change. Unless it’s foggy, when witchcraft and regular sound signals are the best that can be achieved.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Yes, it's also not appropriate inside the solent on a clear day. Principally because AIS CPA assumes that things will continue on their current course and speed, and even large ships do not really do that inside the solent. If you were just monitoring AIS CPA you could easily be taken off guard by the ship changing course to go south of Ryde middle for example.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Are you serious? AIS CPA constantly changes as vessels direction and speed change.
I understand that AIS clutter because of traffic density can make it inappropriate but the Solent is not always rammed.
Folks who are aware of the IRPCS understand Rule 7 which is implicit about all available means, where appropriate.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
It’s quite serious. In the ship channel in the Solent, you can do much better than AIS with the aid of a chart, or your knowledge of it, and some common sense. Otherwise you’d be edging round Egypt point in the back eddy, thinking you were about to be run down. You know where that ship is going, and when it’ll make the turn, within about 25 metres. We, and flaming, regularly race through and around the big ship channels and do not use AIS to work out collision likelihood.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
@flaming said “ Principally because AIS CPA assumes that things will continue on their current course and speed,”
That is not true.
@Chiara’s slave I do understand your example but by applying Rule 7 you come to your conclusion.
The point is that AIS is expected to be used in line with Rule 7.
That is not true.
@Chiara’s slave I do understand your example but by applying Rule 7 you come to your conclusion.
The point is that AIS is expected to be used in line with Rule 7.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough I am perfectly well aware of how AIS works. And of course this is of exactly no use if your paths will intersect as the ship is making a turn, which they do a lot in the Solent. Since before it starts turning your AIS is telling you it will miss you comfortably, but if you left any avoiding action until your AIS was beeping at you as it kept turning towards you, it would be far too late.
Or if you're deciding in your small family cruiser if it's safe to cross from the western end of the Ryde middle bank towards Osbourne bay - and there is a ship heading East and just passing Prince consort. At that point in time your AIS would tell you he was heading North of Ryde middle, and that by continuing South you would be opening the CPA. Except we all know that large container ships and tankers normally pass South of Ryde middle, and he's just about to turn to Starboard to do that. And he'll be at the point you're crossing the main channel well before you've cleared the channel. Again, by the time your AIS has picked up on the potential issue it's way too late, your decision needed to be made well in advance of that.
Middle of the channel. Different matter entirely. But the fact that you are seriously arguing that AIS is the most appropriate collision avoidance tool in the Solent on a clear day.... That is terrifying.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
The Egypt point example is a goid one because you could potentially be less than a minute away from a collision, according to AIS, yet be completely safe. I can’t offhand think of another quite such stark one, but there are other turns in the channel, plus of course you might be lee bowing in the deep water knowing perfectly well you’ll be on the other tack shortly.
