RTIR Kite Fest!

[Triassic]

The mark of success is people having fun. To be honest, taking 11 hours to go round in a 37 foot C/R, and getting a pretty good (in class) result, was actually pretty close to the having fun vs enduring it border.

I will admit to a serious sense of humour failure at Bembridge ledge when we hit a wind hole and saw the result of eight hours hard work drift away...... It was more than compensated for though by the look on the lifeboat rib crew's faces when they ran aground trying to get to us to warn us about Ryde sands, although I confess we were sailing in about two feet of water at the time.........

 

[lw395]

lw395 please re-read my posts. You seem to be focusing on me, and my B32. I'll say it again. I got to the Needles. I could have gone round. I may have finished within the time limit, I may not have done. We had a discussion around the crew and decided to pop the kite, go to Cowes and party instead and had a very good weekend.

I'm giving stats on Div 8. I'm not in Div 8. I just felt very sorry for a lot of people behind me who never even made it past Hurst and didn't even have a choice to make.

I'm asking a question if the race could have been improved via a light wind start sequence. You seem to be taking a slightly elitist yacht racing stand point. If you think that if out of a fleet if 160 boats, only 17 finishing is perfectly acceptable and doesn't need a constructive debate on forum, then so be it.

The point is, the low number of finishers is not really down to the potential capability of the boats, it's down to the fact that a) a lot of them chose not to keep making an effort and b) a lot of them are not very serious racing sailors. A lot of people turn up and have a go, and if they only get around 3 years out of 4, they mostly don't seem to mind.
It's a race against the elements. Yes it is entirely acceptable for not everyone to finish every time.
Overall, about half the boats finished on a day when many dinghy races were binned due to the light weather and many other sailors looked at the forecasts and sat in the garden listening to the football.
It's a handicap race (or 3 or so races to be exact) with a huge diversity of boats so it's never going to be fair.

 

[Iain C]

I agree with most of what you say...although tbh if you're trying to get a Centaur through Hurst against a building foul tide and very little wind, I don't think it's really about "choosing not to keep making an effort"...if your best course to windward is essentially backwards I don't think even Lord Ben of Ainslie would be able to beat the laws of physics in that scenario. I agree that lots of them aren't "very serious racing sailors" too...myself included, but it's a #raceforall, not just for the very serious racing sailors.

However whilst it's never going to fair for all (and let's face it, if you want totally fair racing, go and sail a one design on a mass start, not handicap rated boats on staggered starts) I do think that an earlier start contingency plan for a light wind day may have allowed significantly more boats to get round the Needles and also allowed more boats to finish before the cut off time.

 

[laika]

By my quick calculations the small boats in the last start had just over 3 hours to get to the needles before the tide changed.

you still only need to net VMG 2.5 - 3 knots through the water. If you could not do that on Saturday morning you were extremely unlikely to have got round before the time limit even if you had another hour or more to get round the needles.

After 3 hours the group 8 leaders were just coming up to Hurst. Out of the boats in group 8 with a tracker on, other than one boat which from the track I suspect was motoring (a heavy displacement 25' motor sailor which is listed as retired) no-one had rounded the needles before 13:30, ie a bit more than 5 hours after the start. The ultimate winners of ISC were with us half way up the needles channel so I doubt they rounded much before 13:00. The knock-on was then that other than the leaders, group 8s had the tide turn foul before bembridge, although at least there was no tacking involved there.

I contend that those boats who didn't make it to hurst before the flood really kicked in were going nowhere against a south westerly for 3+ hours. I disagree with lw395 that non-finishers weren't making an effort. If you weren't in the top 20% by the needles you had no chance of finishing in time. A replay of the tracking shows there were still boats making one heck of an effort at midnight when tracking ended. An hour earlier start and far fewer boats would have been "trapped" in the needles channel and would have had a chance of finishing.

 

[lw395]

It could equally have lead to the well sailed small boats getting to the Needles very early and then failing to make headway for 3 hours against the West-going tide. Unlikely to give them a fair result.
As it is, I'm pretty sure the small boats which achieved good places were well sailed and deserved the results they got.

 

[Triassic]

I think the argument/suggestion of an earlier start in the conditions experienced on Saturday is a valid one. I'm not sure an 04:30 start would have been particularly popular with the less dedicated racers but conditions were most certainly sailable then and it would have given them a good chance of getting through the Hurst narrows which ultimately is the gate they have to reach if they are to complete the course. Once they turn at the Needles even the slowest craft out there would have been able to tuck in and at the very least hold it's ground against the remainder of the tide before using the East bound to get down to Bembridge. Sure they would have still had to deal with foul tide there, or indeed on the way back up the Solent, but it's considerably less than that experienced at Hurst and wouldn't have been a show stopper. I guess it ultimately comes down to wether you are there for the social side with a bit of racing thrown in, or serious about your racing. As Flaming said, this event is supposed to be fun.......

 

[lw395]

I don't think it's desirable to fiddle with the start times to influence which boats the weather favours.

I recall one time, in the Impala, we kedged at Freshwater for a long time. So getting around the Needles is only part of it.
There have been previous races where the whole course has been shortened.

In any case, from what I can see of forecasts lately, it would be very hard to predict the night before how long the tail enders of the slow flights will take to get to Hurst.
15 degrees difference in true wind direction makes a huge change to VMG.
Forecasting whether we'll have an average of 4 knots or 6 is not reliable.

An 0430 start means many boats leaving the dock well before it gets light, having had not much sleep. I think if they did anything like that, many boats would simply not bother to leave the Hamble or wherever.
Whether people find it 'fun' is up to them. Personally I enjoy light airs racing and would always enjoy a day on the water with friends, even if we didn't finish.
It's not some charity fun race that's sprung up, it's a serious race with proper cups, a lot of history etc. The fact that many entrants are only in it for fun does not mean it should turn into some other sort of race.
Many people have tried to organise events which are more about 'fun', mostly they don't stand the test of time.

 

[PhillM]

I was out Saturday from Hamble to Bucklers hard. For reasons which I shall not get into we didn't leave until about 12.30. Having no wind we motored up to near to Lepe then the wind kicked in about 3.30. So up went the sails and we had a lovely sail-on-the-spot for two hours - basically sailed back and forth between Lepe Cardinal and North Thorn Cardinal. While it was (mostly) fun with 4-gusting-5 by about 4.30, there was simply no way that we were going to make progress against wind and tide. Even at neaps, it simply doesn't happen. Even with the engine on we can only make 4 kn so I think we had 1.5 over ground for the last mile.

Had I been in RTIR and failed to make it to Hurst before the tide turned, I'd be stuffed. About 4 p.m. there was quite an impressive fleet heading East, in the Western Solent, We could also see the leaders of the main fleet making very slow progress coming west from, I guess, Ryde.

 

[Phil the Cowman]

The mark of success is people having fun. To be honest, taking 11 hours to go round in a 37 foot C/R, and getting a pretty good (in class) result, was actually pretty close to the having fun vs enduring it border.

On a small slow boat that could have taken over 14, very hot, hours, and ended up timed out, I cannot imagine that you would still be having fun. And the needles is the point at which you are in effect committed.

At some point you just have to recognise that not all of the boats / crews who entered were actually suited to sailing round the island in those conditions.

Well, I don't know about other people, but I took part in the race for the first time, and thoroughly enjoyed it! As a " purple flagger" we had the latest start, so were always rather up against it in the light conditions. My priorities were to to have a good days sailing (achieved),stay out of trouble(achieved),and to get round (Failed!). We got to that pesky cardinal mark just west of Yarmouth as the tide turned, and it was trying to overtake us! By tacking deep into the Keyhaven side ( bumping on the bottom), and then short tacking round the fort, we managed to get out into the sea where; rather than going back into the Needles channel and losing ground we decided to go the other side of the Shingles. By 1445 we did the maths and decided that we simply weren't going to get round in anything like a reasonable time and retired.( the fact that I could see the bottom as we were perhaps cutting it a bit fine helped on that decision!). Lovely run back to Cowes and a cracking run ashore in the evening helped to prevent any great feelings of failure.
The boat is old, smallish (24feet), and heavy, and did surprisingly well; much more than holding her own. I sail definitely at the budget end of things ( I was sewing up tears in the genny on the trip up from Poole the afternoon before!), but didn't feel at a particular disadvantage. I'm actually quite glad that my first induction into this event was in gentle conditions; a good experience, and now keen to come back as unfinished business. We had three wonderful days on the water( ie Poole to Cowes, the race, and then back to Poole) and a good night out - whats not to like?

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I popped my RTIR and kite flying cherry this year. We were in purple and got a cracking start but just struggled to get to Hurst before the tide turned, let alone the Needles. I recon we could have touched Hurst Castle with a boat hook pushing through there. Once through, the pressure was eased off and passed the Needles. We got the kite up and there was a chance we might be able to cross the line before the cut off but the wind died down to St Catherine's and we drifted on 2 1/2 kts of tide for an hour or so before calling it a day. W

The sensible thing to do would have been to drop back to Yarmouth, Lymington etc, go to the pub and enjoyed the rest of the day but I'm glad we pushed on because I/we would have always wondered "what if". We went round the island, granted half of it on engine but we didn't turn around.

It's unfinished business as the skipper said, we'll be back.

 

[laika]

It could equally have lead to the well sailed small boats getting to the Needles very early and then failing to make headway for 3 hours against the West-going tide. Unlikely to give them a fair result.
As it is, I'm pretty sure the small boats which achieved good places were well sailed and deserved the results they got.

As triassic says, you can tuck in closer to the island to escape the worst of the tide and tacking against an easterly/south easterly isn't going to be the common case. It's a slowdown rather than a "gate" like the needles channel against the flood in a south westerly.

I didn't intend to argue that the start time "should" be changed for small boats. I understand the logistics issues and the publicity need to pay attention to the start times for the open 60s, grand prix multihulls etc. I was simply suggesting that the start time was directly responsible for the 90% failure to achieve a race time and contradicting the notion that if small boats didn't get held up there they'd have not got round in time anyway. 90% speaks for itself. EITHER lw395 is wrong in saying that those who didn't achieve a time from group 8 are either lacking reasonable sailing skills or commitment, OR it isn't a race for all. I believe lw395 is wrong and the timing was unfortunate.

On the commitment front, if you play the tracker to the end at midnight you see two boats still definitely making for the line and another couple further back which might be still at it but still have the option of peeling off to portsmouth. The tide would have been turning foul against them. Wonder what time they finished? Hats off to them in any case.

 

[lw395]

The start times as they are give the good sailors in small cheap boats their best chance of a good result.
That is as close to a 'race for all' as you can get, racing around a tidal island.

It would be extremely foolish to mess about with the fundamentals of the UK's most popular sailing event to suit some bizarre interpretations of how people failed to keep up with Contessas in light air.

Some people I know have entered in boats not really suited to racing. They don't mind, it's a fun day out when the wind delivers.
Other people have a lot to learn about getting their boat around efficiently. Most are realistic about that.

The nature of the event is that most people who take part accept that one year in ten it will blow old boots and you might give up (or even get cancelled for small boats), one year in ten there won't be enough wind and you might give up. About 8 years in 10 it's one of the best days on the water.

You should respect that it is a RACE. 50% of the people taking part are fairly serious about it. The small boats that got around this year are mostly proper racers, who want a proper race. These are the people who come back year after year and make the event what it is. I don't think they would take kindly to having their event messed about with. Any changes which might have worked with 20/20 hindsight this year could be disastrous next year.

The RTIR is in fact often seen as hugely biased in favour of smaller boats. You could say this is borne out by the list of winners over the years. The starts are timed such that a small boat in typical wind has the best chance of getting the most favourable tide around the course.

 

[flaming]

The RTIR is in fact often seen as hugely biased in favour of smaller boats. You could say this is borne out by the list of winners over the years. The starts are timed such that a small boat in typical wind has the best chance of getting the most favourable tide around the course.

This year more than ever. The first 55 overall under IRC came from group 3.

 

[lw395]

This year more than ever. The first 55 overall under IRC came from group 3.

I would not call 'bias' on one year's results.
Handicap racing with a wide range of entrants will always favour someone, according to whether the course is more reaches/fetches/runs whatever. When there's varying tide and wind there are random things which favour certain boats (relative to their PY or IRC). If there's no dead run, asy's on bowsprits are favoured over old-skool kites etc
With the RTIR it is a little 'structurally' biased to small boats IMHO. That's an observation, not a whine. The small boats get a better chance of the random influences favouring them, because of the start time structure. OTOH a boat at the top extreme of the size range is also favoured because there's less really big boats to gain when the cards fall that way.
Which all gives us norms in average size boats some comfort when we come mid fleet. I might mean 'scrape into the middle third of the fleet'.....

 

[flaming]

I'm agreeing with you... Just pointing out that this year the bias was more evident than normal. I gather the smaller boats spent a lot less time parked up.

 

[laika]

The start times as they are give the good sailors in small cheap boats their best chance of a good result.
That is as close to a 'race for all' as you can get, racing around a tidal island.
[...]
You should respect that it is a RACE. 50% of the people taking part are fairly serious about it. The small boats that got around this year are mostly proper racers, who want a proper race.

Make up your mind: is it for serious racers only or not

I don't dispute that the start timing is normally optimal for the front runners in the last group. However this year it was a gate which meant that 90% of the last group didn't get a time. I didn't argue that the start times should have been changed, I simply asserted that had the last group started an hour earlier, a far higher proportion would have finished in under 13 hours 50mins elapsed. I accept that race logistics meant an earlier start was probably impractical and also that we have cultural differences which affect our relative views of the importance of winning vs finishing. Can we agree on the one point I'm making or are our readings of "Winning Tides" different? I can't be completely hopeless at reading that given that we're not proper racers, didn't have a proper spinnaker, but still managed to be in the 10%

 

[lw395]

When did the tide turn at the Needles? About 5h30 from HWPortsmouth?
So that's roughly mid day, 4 hours to do about 16 miles with the tide gving you 2 knots, so you need a vmg through the water of about 2 knots. So worst case if it's bang on the nose, you need 3 knots if you can point at 48 degrees off.
Most people if they can't do that are going to give up of their own accord and look forwards to next year.
If a reasonably sailed boat can't do 3 knots through the water, then there probably isn't enough breeze to race, there comes a point when a lack of steerage way becomes a safety/rules/damage issue.
People will struggle to be on the right side of the line.

Maybe a more efficient way of getting yachts into a flat calm at the Needles might not actually be a good thing?

Maybe the reality is the race was marginal for being cancelled and the organisers did the best they could??

Generally if you want to sail the back of the Wight on a sunny day, top tip is to start from Yarmouth.

 

[Iain C]

You're obviously right lw395. I'm sure you could probably keep up with Miaow or High Potential in a baggy white sails only Centaur. I'm sure that if the ISC ever suggested "tell you what chaps, we'll start an hour earlier next time if it's light to give the slow guys at the back the maximum chance of getting round the Needles and having a good day out" it would be met with utter dismay and possibly revolt. In fact, I don't even know how the ISC got away with sending me and my old purple flagged boat off at 0630 one year...I'm just very disappointed I only managed 290 overall rather than winning it as I should have had those pesky Contessas and their 3di sails easily.

So we'll have to agree to disagree, and hopefully those less gifted/talented sailors will either stay out of your way or go and sharpen their act up for next year.

 

[lw395]

The start times are fairly fixed relative to the tide time.
I suspect a great many people who started at 0800 this year and didn't round the Needles made a decision that they would have also made had they started an hour earlier.
There wasn't enough wind, it wasn't forecast to improve much, they went home.

 

[Triassic]

Concise 10 would have appreciated a later start, about 16:30 would have suited them fine! It is what it is, there is a lot of merit in not playing with tradition but on the other hand you shouldn't ignore the needs of your competitors, was it not the other day the thread was running about the lack of entrants this year? Yacht racing will always be subject to the weather and it's little variables, you just have to get on with it and make the most of your day and I suspect that is what the vast majority of people did on Saturday.