Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Royal Yacht Squadron -White ensign on bermudanvessel?
- Thread starter HappyHunter
- Start date
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Pinnacle
Well-Known Member
monkfish24
Well-Known Member
Thank You John Morris for explaining who Sir Donald Gosling is 
I was starting to get a bit upset that he isn't given gratitude by anyone outside of the RN. He donated an admirable sum of money to our welfare fund when we were in Afghanistan in 2007. All it took was a letter and we got a very quick positive reply from his charity.
I 2nd the "Sir Donald Gosling can wear whatever ensign he wants"
I was starting to get a bit upset that he isn't given gratitude by anyone outside of the RN. He donated an admirable sum of money to our welfare fund when we were in Afghanistan in 2007. All it took was a letter and we got a very quick positive reply from his charity.
I 2nd the "Sir Donald Gosling can wear whatever ensign he wants"
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Leander was anchored off Yarmouth at the weekend and an uplifting sight she was. At least that's what I thought.
Richard Shead
Slipped Anchor
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
That is certainly the case - he has contributed a small fortune over the years. Trade or no trade he deserves more respect.....
alan_d
Well-Known Member
Are there other laws you think rich philanthropists should be allowed to break?
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
If he wasn't rich then he couldn't be a philanthropist and it seems he is perfectly entitled to wear the white if he so wishes. And if he wasn't entitled (which is not the case) which law would he have been breaking?
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Steady... We're only talking about an ensign here. No-one's getting hurt, no-one's getting robbed, state secrets aren't being sold to some hostile organisation.
But, as you ask the question, then I'll give you an answer: Yes. Anyone, including rich philanthropists, can, in my opinion, break any law they like - so long as the law in question is trivial and the breaking of it is in pursuit of the greater good. Examples: the saving of a life; lifting someone else out of a miserable or seriously deprived existence; the prevention of the breaking of a more important law; etc.
I hope this helps.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
True Blue found the relevant part of the Merchant Shipping act. It only suggest that the ensign may be impounded but does also mention that it is not allowable to hoist ...
A lot of fuss about nothing.
Which suggests that it is at someone's discretion.
A lot of fuss about nothing.
Mariner69
Well-Known Member
The MSA also suggests, under section 2, that fines may be applied summarily up to the maximum and on indictment a fine; possibly without limit (extremely unlikely) since it would be Crown Court.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
...but how do you know he hasn't a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State?
That's for him to know and some nosey Customs Officer to find out.
That's for him to know and some nosey Customs Officer to find out.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Why has this thread lapsed into the assumption that Sir Donald Gosling is breaking the law by having the white ensign flown from his yacht when he's using it? If you really have any issues or doubts about the legitimacy then write a letter to Cowes Castle and denounce him. If not then give him the benefit of the doubt and leave him be.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Because I mentioned several posts ago that I thought he could wear what he liked as far as I was concerned, having had first hand knowledge of his extremely generous gifts towards the welfare of those serving in the RN. The sense of hyperbole was lost somewhere...
The whole legality debate was then started by someone asking which other 'laws' I considered might be ignored by wealthy philanthropists.
I didn't consider this worthy of a reply and ignored it.
My feeling is that much of the hot air in ensign debates is generated by envy and some very large chips on shoulders. There seems to be a vociferous minority who want to have a go at the trappings of what they perceive as 'privilege' or 'wealth' or 'influence'. Perhaps a little of this has rubbed off into this thread?
Its all a little sad and pathetic especially as any British citizen can enjoy the right to wear an undefaced Blue Ensign. Just go and join the appropriate Yacht Club, get a British Registered boat and apply to the club for the warrant to wear the thing.
If you want to wear a fancy wig, and like arguing in front of lots of people, go and study law and become a barrister. etc etc.
My feeling is that its like lots of things in British society and culture. If you were starting from a blank sheet of paper, you wouldn't invent them, but I am one of those who enjoy the cultural heritage of the last thousand years that we live in and with and will defend it to the last.
I am positive that Sir Donald IS NOT breaking the law and neither do I condone anyone who does break the law. It was a silly argument/discussion fueled by the chips on some peoples shoulders. I know they are balanced because some of them appear to have chips on both shoulders.
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mcframe
Well-Known Member
Hear! hear!
The fact that I saw it with the white, and then with the red made me think that the law/rules/conventions *were* being followed. I've no chip on my shoulder, for my (larger, sometimes, for effect) Scots house flag is flown from my crosstrees and hoisted after, and lowered before, my red ;-)
If Leander had worn the red all day and all night, then I doubt we'd have had this thread....
alan_d
Well-Known Member
Except that you have replied now, so I too shall respond.
For the avoidance of doubt, I was not asserting that Sir Donald was breaking the law by wearing the White Ensign, and I could not care less what ensign he or anyone else chooses to wear. Neither was I implying that Sir Donald was unworthy of the esteem in which you clearly hold him.
The point of my Socratic question was to draw attention to the fact that you seemed to have moved away from the principle of universality, by apparently granting Sir Donald the right to "wear what [ensign] he likes" (contrary to the provisions of Section 2 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995) because of "his extremely generous gifts towards the welfare of those serving in the RN."
It is a natural human reaction to wish to reward people we esteem by granting them special privileges, but if so doing infringes the principle of universality as it applies to laws, rules or ethical principles it is the start of a very slippery slope indeed.
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VexedIllologist
Active Member
A Bermudian Ship is a British Ship
Happy Hunter,
you appear to have fallen into the trap of assuming that the expression 'British Ship' is somehow limited to those that are registered in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is not the case.
The definition of a British Ship is at s.1 Merchant Shipping Act 1995:
British ships and United Kingdom ships.
(1)A ship is a British ship if—
(a)the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II; or
(b)the ship is, as a Government ship, registered in the United Kingdom in pursuance of an Order in Council under section 308; or
(c)the ship is registered under the law of a relevant British possession; or
(d)the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
(i)is not registered under Part II, but
(ii)is wholly owned by qualified owners, and
(iii)is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.
Sir Donald Gosling no doubt has the appropriate authorisation for LeanderG to wear the St George's (or White) Ensign of the Royal Yacht Squadron, while he is onboard. I understand that he also holds authority for the use of the plain Blue Ensign.
He may be unique in having the choice of Red, White or Blue, as the mood takes him, but there could be other members of the Royal Yacht Squadron in a similar position.
I have heard that the rules of some yacht clubs limit the privilege of their special ensigns to yachts registered in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Admiralty's authority in maritime flag matters extends to the British Possessions, so if there is no such restriction in the relevant Club Rules it is perfectly in order for a special ensign to be authorised.
My own yacht, which is registered in a British Possession, is authorised by both Permit and Warrant; Permits are issued by Yacht Clubs based in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands, while a Warrant is required from other Clubs that are based outside the British Islands (Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man).
I hope this helps.
Happy Hunter,
you appear to have fallen into the trap of assuming that the expression 'British Ship' is somehow limited to those that are registered in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is not the case.
The definition of a British Ship is at s.1 Merchant Shipping Act 1995:
British ships and United Kingdom ships.
(1)A ship is a British ship if—
(a)the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II; or
(b)the ship is, as a Government ship, registered in the United Kingdom in pursuance of an Order in Council under section 308; or
(c)the ship is registered under the law of a relevant British possession; or
(d)the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
(i)is not registered under Part II, but
(ii)is wholly owned by qualified owners, and
(iii)is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.
Sir Donald Gosling no doubt has the appropriate authorisation for LeanderG to wear the St George's (or White) Ensign of the Royal Yacht Squadron, while he is onboard. I understand that he also holds authority for the use of the plain Blue Ensign.
He may be unique in having the choice of Red, White or Blue, as the mood takes him, but there could be other members of the Royal Yacht Squadron in a similar position.
I have heard that the rules of some yacht clubs limit the privilege of their special ensigns to yachts registered in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Admiralty's authority in maritime flag matters extends to the British Possessions, so if there is no such restriction in the relevant Club Rules it is perfectly in order for a special ensign to be authorised.
My own yacht, which is registered in a British Possession, is authorised by both Permit and Warrant; Permits are issued by Yacht Clubs based in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands, while a Warrant is required from other Clubs that are based outside the British Islands (Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man).
I hope this helps.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I understood your post perfectly well. The problem was that I was speaking 'tongue in cheek'. I have no desire to grant special status in the law to those who are generous and more philanthropic than most of can afford to be.
I should have kept my mouth shut in the first place - or my fingers off the keyboard as I don't really believe that the law should apply any the less rigorously to those who are wealthy or well connected.
Sadly I know that this is not always the case, but hey ho. (And no I am not publishing details!!)
Post in haste and repent at leisure to my original offering...
alan_d
Well-Known Member
That is what I expected your position to be, which is why I picked you up on your original post.
I should have had more sense, however, than to raise issues of jurisprudence or moral philosophy on this forum, particularly in the middle of an ensign thread.
Note to self: Stick to the yachtie stuff.