rod kickers or topping lifts

[hotwork5]

have read the posts on the use for rod kickers and if they are any good
I have just purchased an 11 year old beneteau first 300 which has a sprung sparcraft kicker fitted when new. It is rated at 150Kg.
There is no topping lift. The main has a stack bag and lazy lines
As soon as the halyard is eased the boom end drops, until held up by the the 4 thin lazy lines. 2 of these are going to fail soon
The only way to keep the boom up is to take the halyard to the boom end
Having now got the boat out for re-fit works I have removed the kicker
There is a 4 to one vang purchase but it is very hard to compress the kicker down to fully retracted.
So will it or should it be able to hold up the boom?
In a sailing mag I have been reading this month there are pictures of 3 boats, each with a rod kicker. All the boats' pictures show they have topping lifts
So what is the point of rod kickers??
6 years ago, on a charter boat for practical training we were being show how to scandalise the main using the topping lift. Guess what? The boat had a rod kicker. If we pulled the boom too high the kicker came apart after letting off the vang
So They seem to be a waste of time and money

Night All
navigate 1

 

[ZEBEDEE]

It sounds to me as if your rod kicker has given up. I have a gas kicker and if I have no kicker on it, it pushes the main up. The only time I have to use the main haliard or topping lift is to stop the boom moving from side to side when you lean on it.

 

[samwise]

Agree with Zebedee. Sounds like your kicker has kicked the bucket. If you have a tame rigger they could give you an opinion. My Selden kicker holds up the boom easily when eased off we still use the topping lift to get the boom higher if we are rigging the awning.

 

[dickh]

Your kicker needs a new spring - I had the same problem some years back and went to Z-Spars and got another spring from them, but I did have to add a spacer to get the length correct. It worked a treat and I dispensed with the kicking strap(but clipped it back so it could be used as an emergency main halliard) It worked very well when slab reefing the main, just release the kicking strap, the boom lifts and the main is then easy to reef.
If you don't want your kicker I'll take it off your hands...... I want one for my current boat which has a topping lift.

 

[reeac]

[ QUOTE ]
Your kicker needs a new spring - I had the same problem some years back and went to Z-Spars and got another spring from them, but I did have to add a spacer to get the length correct. It worked a treat and I dispensed with the kicking strap(but clipped it back so it could be used as an emergency main halliard) It worked very well when slab reefing the main, just release the kicking strap, the boom lifts and the main is then easy to reef.
If you don't want your kicker I'll take it off your hands...... I want one for my current boat which has a topping lift. [ QUOTE ]


So what do you see as the advantages of a rod kicker over a topping lift plus line and block kicker?

 

[flaming]

Less fiddling, if well set up it will "adjust itself" whilst you set and reef the main, meaning one less line to adjust.
Also topping lifts can chafe the leach of the main when slack.

 

[whipper_snapper]

One word: 'scandalise'

I would not throw away such a fundamental boat handling tool in exchange for less fiddling.

 

[rudolph_hart]

Haven't ever felt the urge to scandalise the main (tho' I've called it a rude name, when it refused to trim when racing). The local sailing smacks here scandalise the main by hoisting the tack, not the clew, to control speed when 'drudging' for oysters uder sail.

To cure the problem with the rod kicker, replace the coil spring with one or more gas springs. I did this on my previous Dehler 34, and it fixed it. Sailspar at Brightlingsea fitted the new springs.

 

[flaming]

Scandalising, whilst useful, I would in no way describe as "fundamental".

It is also not a whole lot of use with a fully batterned main.

 

[savageseadog]

I have a Spinlock Powervang which works well. It doesn't have a spring it's either free or locked to a chosen setting. I found the Sailspar unit to have a very limited working range on the spring.

 

[bigmart]

I was sailing, the other week with a well known ex Sailing Magazine editor, who was showing me all kinds of boat handling techniques. He really knows his stuff.

His comments was the two things you definitely don't want on a sailboat are Fully Battened Mainsails & Rod Kickers.

How do you scandalise a Main with a Rod Kicker. Presumably it will fall apart every time you try it.

Martin

 

[flaming]

Whilst I'm sure he's a very good sailor indeed I have to disagree with him.

No you cannot scandalise a fully batterened main with a rod kicker. What you get is a more powerful and easier handled sail, which of course is of greater use for the 99% of the time that the sail is up and drawing properly.
When was the last time you scandalised a main anyway!?

And Full batterned mains have another trick up their sleeve, sail on a reach and ease your sheet. Still driving right? Not much use for slowing down? Yep, now dump 2 foot of halyard - all power destroyed as the batterns straighten. Need more power? Just grind the last 2 foot of halyard up!

Doesn't work on non FB sails as they just bag up.

 

[whipper_snapper]

[ QUOTE ]
It is also not a whole lot of use with a fully battened main.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah well, if you have a fully battened main you have already sold your soul to the devil so you might as well go the whole hog and have a solid kicker! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif



PS. Not serious! Like everything its horses for courses.

 

[bigmart]

I have to say that the last time a Scandalised my Main Sail was last week, when I was sailing with this guy.

Being the owner of a small boat with a conventional Mainsail & topping lift I am inclined to agree with him. It has the advantage of not encouraging me to spend any cash on converting.

Overall I suppose it depends on how reliable you find you boats engine & whether you like to sail into intricate situations that require the full spectrum of boat handling skills.

Personally I think I would prefer to have the option to scandalise the Main available to me.

Martin

 

[flaming]

I would agree that it's certainly not something that you absolutely must change on a boat!

But I would refute that having a FB main and a solid kicker means you can't sail into intricate places, that is simply not the case.
Scandalising is very rarely the only answer to any given boat handling problem, in fact there is very rarely only one correct answer. Having a FB main just requires a different set of tricks, and in some situations is a clear advantage.

Close quaters boat handling is simply a matter of knowing what your boat can and even more importantly cannot do. This applies whether sailing or motoring.

 

[michael_w]

IMHO rod kicker are a right PITA.

When the sail is down the Selden sort bob about and it is difficult to get the boom secured safely. I took to taking a bight of the mainsheet and tying a clove hitch round the boom end before making it off on the guardrail.

The current boat with its Sailspar one bottoms out and is easy to secure, just pull the mainsheet in hard.

Rod kickers become a real bore when you set a trysail as you can't get the boom down on the deck without disconnecting the thing.

Having a powerful kicker is just a matter of enough blocks. My Merlin-Rocket had 64:1. I always make sure that on of the blocks is undersized, so in extremis the kicker will fail rather than break the boom.

 

[bigmart]

Ah but you have to admit it is cheaper not to fit a Rod Kicker or a FB Main & the handling aspect does make a convincing argument.

Martin

 

[homa]

all the boats had topping lifts ?

I have a gas rod kicker and love it. I bought it to do away with the topping lift that had frayed the mainsail leach over time.
I also wanted to remove one more bit of rope from the mast.

After a days sailing with the main sail stowed away I do clip the main halyard to the aft end of the boom - this is simply to avoid having the halyard frapping at the mast.

Just thought this might be what you saw in the boat pictures

 

[bbg]

I would agree that it is cheaper not to fit a rod kicker or a FB main. It is also cheaper not to fit a low-friction traveller or replace the main when it is worn out.

FB main improves sailing performance and sailing life. A properly specced and installed rod kicker improves sail handling.

If all I am trading off by having these is the ability to scandalise the main, this one is a no-brainer. I'll take the rigid vang and FB main any day. For me, the ability to scandalise the main is not a convincing argument at all. When would I ever NEED to do that? I never have yet, and can't see why I would need to.

Having said that - there is no "right" answer to this trade-off. It is really a question of personal preference - like center vs aft cockpit boats. I know what I would choose, but you might choose differently.

 

[whipper_snapper]

Well you probably never NEED to. But then you never NEED to go sailing! I suspect the reason you have never done it is because you have never done it, if you see what I mean! I really do regard it as a very valuable tool in my kit of tricks.

How about this:

You want to leave a mooring, single handed, boat lying to a big tide, wind on the beam or even aft of the beam, moored boats all around. (oh and your engine is dead!)

Not enough wind for you to be sure of sailing safely clear on headsail alone. You cannot hoist the main normally because it would pull and you would be dangerously careering around the mooring. What do you do ?

One solution is to hoist the main scandalised thus completely de-powered. Drop the mooring, stroll back to the cockpit, dump the topping lift and heave in the mainsheet. Instantly you have the main working, sail clear, up wind, in full control.

But I accept that there are other solutions and that a fully battened main and rod kicker are what some people want. Personally, I prefer a more basic setup as it is simpler and strangely more satisfying to my strange and simple mind.