Rock on

[newtothis]

Pretty damning look at the environmental impact of GRP here:
The Problem with Boating’s High-Fiberglass Diet | Hakai Magazine
But some interesting alternatives... including volcanic rock.

"Basalt fiber is another boatbuilding material offering a less environmentally damaging alternative to fiberglass. Made by crushing volcanic rock, heating it intensely, then extruding the mash through tiny nozzles to form structural fibers, basalt fiber is stronger than steel, inert in terms of reacting with air or water, and only two to five percent heavier than different forms of fiberglass. It is also comparable in price."

 

[Bodach na mara]

Pretty damning look at the environmental impact of GRP here:
The Problem with Boating’s High-Fiberglass Diet | Hakai Magazine
But some interesting alternatives... including volcanic rock.

"Basalt fiber is another boatbuilding material offering a less environmentally damaging alternative to fiberglass. Made by crushing volcanic rock, heating it intensely, then extruding the mash through tiny nozzles to form structural fibers, basalt fiber is stronger than steel, inert in terms of reacting with air or water, and only two to five percent heavier than different forms of fiberglass. It is also comparable in price."

A very worrying article. If anything i think that it under-states the problem. In addition to the millions (or possibly billions) of recreational boats in existence there are high numbers of commercial vessels and non marine structures made from GRP. It is something that I think of every time I see on the news an item about that bunch of under-informed idealists "just stop oil" who seem to believe that closing the petrochemical industry will be possible by increased windpower construction. Obviously they don't know that wind turbines require oil for their construction and operation.

This story reveals to us all the damage that is being done to the entire food chain by a ubiquitous construction material that we have all taken for granted.

 

[penfold]

A filter feeder gathered and concentrated environmental pollution non-shocker. I'm sceptical that basalt is notably better than glass, which is just a slightly different kind of rock spun into fibre; the major issue is dealing with EOL vessels, perhaps a levy is needed on harbour dues or insurance premiums in order to pay for proper disposal. It definitely needs action however it is addressed.

 

[johnalison]

I have no love for fibreglass but it seems unlikely to me that intact vessels with gelcoat cover are shedding particles. The problem appears to be about the disposal of fibreglass material, as with other synthetic material. this ought to be manageable, but the nature of how boats are discarded is working against progress at present. If rock-based construction is beneficial, all well and good, but I would also need to know the energy costs involved before deciding, as well as whether rock shards are any less harmful than glass ones. I think it is a problem for the future, but maybe confined to a relatively few instances at present.

 

[Adios]

11 views. That's how we get in this mess. We just do what we want and sod the consequences. Then don't have any interest when people try to raise the issues. There are so many other issues with what we have been doing that it would be a full time job listening to all the experts trying to raise them. Then there would be commercial interests to battle. Then going against peoples desires, complacency and willful ignorance. Its really hopeless

 

[oldbloke]

Whatever the actual facts of the matter and whatever the actual implications of the matter, that is a pot boiler Mickey Mouse article published in a magazine with a mission, quoting non-disinterested "experts" and then selectively reported and commented on by Chicken Little.

 

[Adios]

Whatever the actual facts of the matter and whatever the actual implications of the matter, that is a pot boiler Mickey Mouse article published in a magazine with a mission, quoting non-disinterested "experts" and then selectively reported and commented on by Chicken Little.

what kind of agenda do you suspect? Is it all a shill and front for the volcanic rock industrial complex?

 

[oldbloke]

Sl retraction , I have no problem with Dr Ciocan's work. She appears to be an entirely respectable scientist .
Leaving aside your jeremiad, to which the only response is mass suicide.
I am a retired Dr, it became apparent last century that relying on research by vested interests such as drug companies was a bad idea. Nowadays when looking at any reported research or opinion I try to imagine them drawing the opposite conclusion if the facts supported. All too often that test is failed and that is very much the case with this article.
Fibres from basalt is a very minor of the article and your postings.

 

[Adios]

Sl retraction , I have no problem with Dr Ciocan's work. She appears to be an entirely respectable scientist .
Leaving aside your jeremiad, to which the only response is mass suicide.

Yes its a lament., but why would you or I commit suicide. The issue is preservation of life and health. The worst case being loss of life. Taking our own lives is clearly the opposite of a solution. But its the sort of thing the willfully ignorant might say to portray the issue as unworthy of discussion, to deflect. But "quality-of-life suicide" is another matter. That is the only possible solution though I fear the horse has bolted as I say. This is from the video. All of this is happening. And its everything we see as normal products that is poisoning us. Should we kill ourselves to save ourselves? What a farcical idea. Or change our quality of life by stopping all these products and living pre-plastic like its 1960. Or just refuse to think about it.

I am a retired Dr, it became apparent last century that relying on research by vested interests such as drug companies was a bad idea. Nowadays...

Nowadays what? We're smart now and its got better?? That's is a joke. Since medical practice went increasingly protocol based the vested interests have gone all out to capture the people that create the protocols and seem to have succeeded. I wouldn't be surprised if they were behind the move to going protocol based. The Tissue Viability Service for instance is from top to bottom completely under the spell of the dressing manufacturers. They dictate to nurses not just which type of dressing but which manufacturer. Dressings that have become ubiquitous that actually prevent healing and maintain the need for purchasing more dressings. I'm sure all of health care is the same. Its is chronically corrupted. And I know how hard it is to address that, how ignored I am when I attempt, the ways that are used to defend the corrupted status quo. And can identify with this lady trying to raise a red flag and getting people like you dismissing it out of hand bringing in "I'm a retired dr" as though that's a mark of respectability and trust these days.

Fibres from basalt is a very minor of the article and your postings.

I supposed you mean mirror? But actually meant clone? I said the same above. Maybe she feels she'll have zero acceptance if she doesn't at least float the possibility of an alternative, thats how hopeless it is, people won't accept this reduction in quality of life. It doesn't nullify the proof that microplastics, plasticizers and fibers are harmful.

 

[Bouba]

There is always the next generation material....aluminum, cement, kevlar....but for the owners of mass produced boats, we can only buy what they make...which is GRP

 

[fisherman]

The fibres are the least harmful part of the matrix, its surely the resin that's the main problem.
Try this
Disposal of End-of-Life Boats

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The fibres are the least harmful part of the matrix, its surely the resin that's the main problem.
Try this
Disposal of End-of-Life Boats

Quite. No reason to believe largish bits of glass fibres are any more dangerous than other forms of silica or indeed basalt fibres long term. Just avoid the dust caused by grinding it

 

[johnalison]

Quite. No reason to believe largish bits of glass fibres are any more dangerous than other forms of silica or indeed basalt fibres long term. Just avoid the dust caused by grinding it

Possibly, but asbestos fibres are in themselves non-toxic and it is their physical size and shape that makes them hazardous. With the ubiquity of glass fibres, I feel less optimistic that they can’t cause harm, especially if the sheer quantity and range of sizes increases significantly. I don’t think there is cause for alarm at present but I think that there is good reason to take steps to avoid potential harm.

 

[Adios]

I don’t think there is cause for alarm at present

Great. Please convince me

 

[Adios]

Quite. No reason to believe largish bits of glass fibres are any more dangerous than other forms of silica or indeed basalt fibres long term. Just avoid the dust caused by grinding it

I think you're missing magnitude of the issue. Plastics, not just in GRP boats but obviously including them, have polluted the entire environment effecting every human and animal even before they are born. Microplastics revealed in the placentas of unborn babies You can't avoid this by wearing a mask when working on your boat. Even the best filtered plastic recycling plants "could be releasing up to 75bn plastic particles in each cubic metre of wastewater" the same size that was in babies bloodstreams. Even in the state of the art recycling center 6% of each plastic bottle you recycle (as say you because I've stopped recycling it and try really hard not to buy it) is exploded into micro-particles and released into the rivers and sea. Recycling can release huge quantities of microplastics, study finds

If you haven't seen it already watch Dark Waters. The bit at least from 1h05m where he gives a summery of Duponts behaviour. The same behaviour of everyone else in business who is still dealing in plastic. When Hollywood Shows You In Plain Sight-67-Dark Waters

Of course imagine even in a dictatorship situation where the dictator says "ok subjects, I've seen enough, plastics is more harm than benefit, no more." Just imagine trying to extricate us from using it. Look around in any shop, everything is either made from or wrapped in plastic. But the attitude of "its impossible" is exactly what we don't need. "Where there's a will there's a way" would be better but where there's ignorance there's no will.

 

[johnalison]

Great. Please convince me

I’d love to but I’d have to convince myself first. The only evidence I have is the current lack of obvious harm, but as I imply, we should be doing what we can to avoid risk.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I’d love to but I’d have to convince myself first. The only evidence I have is the current lack of obvious harm, but as I imply, we should be doing what we can to avoid risk.

Recent studies show plastic micro particles throughout the entire food chain, not only in mouths, or stomachs or pores to choke the being but actually embedded in their tissues. Disruption of function and cancers a clear risk

If all life goes extinct, there will be clear proof of the danger, but it might be a bit late

 

[Adios]

Recent studies show plastic micro particles throughout the entire food chain, not only in mouths, or stomachs or pores to choke the being but actually embedded in their tissues. Disruption of function and cancers a clear risk

If all life goes extinct, there will be clear proof of the danger, but it might be a bit late

Massive loss of insect life already, which is expected to cause a "collapse of nature". Plummeting insect numbers 'threaten collapse of nature' Presumably smaller creatures are more easily effected. As plastics production increased insect numbers declined. "UK's flying insects have declined by 60% in 20 years" https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2022/may/uks-flying-insects-have-declined-60-in-20-years.html And presumably a delayed effect could be down to only more recent attempts to recycle it rather than relatively safely burying it. I think the recycling of it will be acknowledged as the big problem soon.

I've moved to only cast iron cooking pots, glass containers, after watching Dark Waters and looking into this, but if the food is full of it how much am I still ingesting. According to this a credit cards worth every week. MSN and its in everything https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230103-how-plastic-is-getting-into-our-food

 

[johnalison]

I think the whole business regarding plastics is a mess, and the known effects on wildlife a disgrace, but whatever the effects on us directly, they seem to be swamped by other aspects of modern life, such as obesity and exposure to pollutants in the air. This is not to suggest that they don’t exist but I find that I can go about my life relatively unconcerned about what I eat. There is rightful concern about places such as the eroding rubbish dumps on the Essex shore of the Thames for example, and I doubt if the massive use of plastic in agriculture is often properly dealt with, judging by pictures I have seen from Spain, but this supports my view that it is not just plastic that is the problem but the disposal of it. It is hard to live without single-use plastic, though I try my best, and wince when I see shoppers asking for yet another plastic bag.

 

[penfold]

I've moved to only cast iron cooking pots, glass containers, after watching Dark Waters and looking into this, but if the food is full of it how much am I still ingesting. According to this a credit cards worth every week. MSN and its in everything How microplastics are infiltrating the food you eat

At the risk of being labelled frivolous; you may have ingested 8 spiders in the last 12 months, do you have any symptoms attributable to this? Gruesome as our profligacy and carelessness with plastics and other wonders of modern life are, is there actual pathology from microplastics or is this just handwringing? So far I haven't read anything compelling.