RNLI callout statistics put safety issues in perspective

[Rigger Mortice]

My position is not based on statistics. My perception is that fire is the incident I would least like to have to deal with wherever the boat is. However when somebody quotes statistics at me which are rubbish : US figures do not reflect the typical population of UK sail cruising boats (2008 figures to boot) ; where 8/10 are under 21' then we are trying to compare apples and oranges.

It's the same thing where RNLI statistics are used where the great majority of RNLI interventions are not sailing boat related interventions and therefore have very limited use in assessing the risks I am talking about. One needs to look behind the statistics and use common sense.

Don't be a fool Cyberfight. We all know that one needs to look beyond stark figures and it's blindingly obvious to everyone that the RNLI figures include things that are not relevant to boating. However, even with all your analysis and conjecture, you have totally failed to show that fire is, as you said, the biggest danger in boating....your words not mine.

And you pontificate about looking behind the statistics and using common sense!!!!!!

Either produce the figures or stop trying to mislead people.

 

[Sybarite]

Don't be a fool Cyberfight. We all know that one needs to look beyond stark figures and it's blindingly obvious to everyone that the RNLI figures include things that are not relevant to boating. However, even with all your analysis and conjecture, you have totally failed to show that fire is, as you said, the biggest danger in boating....your words not mine.

And you pontificate about looking behind the statistics and using common sense!!!!!!

Either produce the figures or stop trying to mislead people.

I think that people of good sense will appreciate the point I have been making.

 

[Sybarite]

Sybarite, did the RNLI refuse you membership or a crewing opportunity at some point in your life for you to dislike them so much? :ambivalence: As soon as i read RNLI in the tread title i knew you would be the negative poster.

Maybe it's French boats that spontaneously combust when things get scary, like A myotonic goat falls over or a French soldier drops his.......:sleeping::sleeping:

Please show me where I have posted negatively about the RNLI on this thread. Not what you think I have said.

 

[Searush]

I think that people of good sense will appreciate the point I have been making.

Not much sign of anyone else sharing your so-called "good sense" so far is there?

Have you ever accepted that you may have got something wrong? :encouragement:

 

[Sybarite]

Not much sign of anyone else sharing your so-called "good sense" so far is there?

Have you ever accepted that you may have got something wrong? :encouragement:

No. I don't think this is a wrong/right issue.

I made an assertion, an opinion which RM immediately attacked. He tried to use figures which were nonsense in the context.

And before the RM record gets stuck, I have quoted figures and sources and I have no intention of responding to his imperious requests.


Do you agree a bed is the most dangerous place? Most people die in them.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I think that people of good sense will appreciate the point I have been making.

The last time you claimed that the majority of people supported your view, that fire was the biggest danger in boating, a poll was put up and it has resoundingly proven you to be wrong.

You are now saying that people of good sense appreciate the point you have been making. As your point was that you claim that fire is the biggest danger in boating I refer you, once more, to the poll.

You have dissed the US stats and the RNLI stats. You have claimed that the majority agree with you and you are now trying to say that people of good sense must agree with you. You have tried to say that we need to look beyond the figures, and you have tried make out that you have great analytical skills. Despite all that baloney you have produced not one shred of evidence.

People of good sense are likely to think you are a fool.

 

[Searush]

(snip)People of good sense are likely to think you are a fool.

There only seems to be one person who would disagree with that. Readers may consider this a challenge.

Tweedle Dee

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Do you agree a bed is the most dangerous place? Most people die in them.

You just need to look at the statistics;

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1...les--series-dr-/2012/sty-causes-of-death.html

It's really easy to see what the facts are. Or are you going to tell us that fire is the most dangerous thing we have to contend with?

 

[Tranona]

I think that people of good sense will appreciate the point I have been making.

You are now trying to make yourself the arbiter of good sense!. First you claim fire is the biggest danger facing yachtsmen. When others present evidence that this is not the case you change tack and then claim it is "perception" - yours. It is then pointed out that perception is indeed yours and not shared by other people, nor by any evidence drawn from reports of fire on boats from various sources.

Now we have a new concept - that is it is the thing YOU fear most and would not want to deal with. A far cry from being the "biggest danger" in yachting.

You are of course entitled to have your fear - but it is YOURS and don't try to dismiss the rational evidence that shows it is a very rare occurrence, and most people do not have the same sense of fear as you. This is perhaps reflective of the massive reduction in the number and severity of fires in recent years. Fire is no longer the "bogeyman" in our society that it once was.

 

[Sandgrounder]

You are now trying to make yourself the arbiter of good sense!. First you claim fire is the biggest danger facing yachtsmen. When others present evidence that this is not the case you change tack and then claim it is "perception" - yours. It is then pointed out that perception is indeed yours and not shared by other people, nor by any evidence drawn from reports of fire on boats from various sources.

Now we have a new concept - that is it is the thing YOU fear most and would not want to deal with. A far cry from being the "biggest danger" in yachting.

You are of course entitled to have your fear - but it is YOURS and don't try to dismiss the rational evidence that shows it is a very rare occurrence, and most people do not have the same sense of fear as you. This is perhaps reflective of the massive reduction in the number and severity of fires in recent years. Fire is no longer the "bogeyman" in our society that it once was.

Bang on. Glad to see some sense

 

[Sybarite]

You are now trying to make yourself the arbiter of good sense!. First you claim fire is the biggest danger facing yachtsmen. When others present evidence that this is not the case you change tack and then claim it is "perception" - yours. It is then pointed out that perception is indeed yours and not shared by other people, nor by any evidence drawn from reports of fire on boats from various sources.

Now we have a new concept - that is it is the thing YOU fear most and would not want to deal with. A far cry from being the "biggest danger" in yachting.

You are of course entitled to have your fear - but it is YOURS and don't try to dismiss the rational evidence that shows it is a very rare occurrence, and most people do not have the same sense of fear as you. This is perhaps reflective of the massive reduction in the number and severity of fires in recent years. Fire is no longer the "bogeyman" in our society that it once was.

Fire may (or may not) be a rare occurence, but please don't say that the so-called evidence so far presented is rational. The two sets of statistics presented should have been weighted to allow a correct comparison.

However, as I said before, for me fire is the risk that I apprehend the most but, for the 3rd time, you may have a different opinion.

That's as far as I am going on this point.

Except that I have asked MrB to justify his assertion about me, or, if he is wrong, to do the necessary.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Fire may (or may not) be a rare occurence, but please don't say that the so-called evidence so far presented is rational. The two sets of statistics presented should have been weighted to allow a correct comparison.

Other than your completely irrational assertion that the figures are irrelevant because you say so, you have presented absolutely nothing to support your case. If the figures are irrational it behoves you to show why they are. If the figures are not weighted correctly then, once again, it is up to you to show your calculations. I have put various datasets on the table; all you need do is to present yours.

You started this debate with the assertion that fire is the biggest danger in boating. You have failed to bring any evidence to support that claim, though you are now trying to say something else. Just post the either data or your calculations.

Either you prove your assertion that fire is the biggest danger in boating or, if you are wrong, do the necessary.

 

[MrB]

Except that I have asked MrB to justify his assertion about me, or, if he is wrong, to do the necessary.

I think it's every thread to do with the RNLI you have a problem with....you think the French equivalent is better! It's not!!

 

[Sybarite]

I think it's every thread to do with the RNLI you have a problem with....

If that isn't prejudice, I don't know what is.

...you think the French equivalent is better! It's not!!

This just shows that you haven't the slightest clue what my position is.

You made an accusation, I challenged you, you couldn't back it up. A decent person would have admitted he was wrong and would have apologised.

You didn't and you are not worth discussing with. However you are the fourth person in this position as far as I am concerned, so you are not alone beneath the stone.

 

[oldsalt]

I've never trusted the RNLI figures since we were 'rescued'. We were on the way from the Hamble to Eastbourne as we approached Eastbourne under sail I went to start the engine and there was a big bang. We kept sailing and called the marina which has a lock, saying we could sail into the basin but could the marina boat take us through the lock and to a berth please, they said yes. A few minutes later the lifeboat called us and said they would collect us and drop us in the basin, I said no need the marina will do that, they insisted and had told the marina what they were going to do. When we finally got onto a pontoon the lifeboat skipper came to see us and said that the crew were there every Friday afternoon and they wanted to practice which we had no problem with.


However in the next issue of the local paper said we had been rescued by the RNLI naming our boat. We have never supported the RNLI since their outright lie and a non-rescue added their stats. I wonder how many times they do that.

I have had almost exactly the same experience. A few years ago I had engine failure in light winds, and was happily sailing very slowly back to my home port. The local lifeboat was passing on exercise and as they were there they offered me a tow which I accepted. Afterwards, I found out that it was logged as an official rescue (and a life saved no doubt). I then got a call from the radio licensing authority checking on my VHF licences. So not only did they claim a rescue...someone reported the incident to the radio authority.

Since then, I have taken their rescue statistics with a large pinch of salt.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

You made an accusation, I challenged you, you couldn't back it up. A decent person would have admitted he was wrong and would have apologised.

You really do have a nerve don't you?

You made a statement that fire is the biggest danger in boating, I challenged you, you couldn't back it up. A decent person would have admitted he was wrong and would have apologised.

Where is your apology????

 

[capnsensible]

Rigger and Searush,

Would it be fairer then, to make a statement along the lines of:

Fire is one of the ever present dangers on a leisure vessel. Fire awareness and prevention are significant ways of reducing the number of incidents that occur each year.

Now I see that none of your 'statistics' show any of the incidents I have witnessed or know for a fact to be true so maybe all the arguments should be viewed as mostly correct, but with some degree of realism injected.

Personally, Im not going to let 40 years of seagoing training and experience go out the door on numbers!

CS

 

[snowleopard]

A shame that an interesting thread has been hijacked by bickering.

According to the stats by far the biggest cause of callout is machinery failure so if we're looking to reduce risk, the single most effective solution is to have 2 engines!

However, I think the statistics are misleading - look at the graph of casualty activity on page 11. The bodyboarding, swimming and surfing figures dwarf the boating casualties but look on page 7 - over 3000 pleasure craft v 1000 people in water. The statistics look very dubious.

Incidentally the stats no longer describe everyone a LB is called out to as a 'life saved'. On page 6 they differentiate between 'rescued' and 'lives saved' in a ratio of around 20:1

 

[GrahamM376]

A shame that an interesting thread has been hijacked by bickering.

According to the stats by far the biggest cause of callout is machinery failure so if we're looking to reduce risk, the single most effective solution is to have 2 engines!

Even that statistic is open to interpretation as machinery failure is quite often - engine is fine but won't start because of battery mismanagement. A minor inconvenience to some who have the knowledge and spares to sort a problem can be a mayday call from those who don't even know where the dip-stick is. When I was involved with Conwy lifeboat (not crew) I was surprised how many shouts were for engine failure on sail boats, on perfectly good sailing days when they should have been able to sail on to the mooring.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Rigger and Searush,

Would it be fairer then, to make a statement along the lines of:

Fire is one of the ever present dangers on a leisure vessel. Fire awareness and prevention are significant ways of reducing the number of incidents that occur each year.

Now I see that none of your 'statistics' show any of the incidents I have witnessed or know for a fact to be true so maybe all the arguments should be viewed as mostly correct, but with some degree of realism injected.

Personally, Im not going to let 40 years of seagoing training and experience go out the door on numbers!

CS

You may redefine it however you wish but I started this thread under the heading of "putting safety issues in perspective" and what you are saying may be applied to all safety issues. The point is that, whilst fire is an ever present risk, so too are many other risks. They all warrant a degree of vigilance; some more so than others because of a relatively higher level of risk.

As for the incidents which you saw, they have no bearing on the overall picture of boat safety. They are interesting but, in statistical terms, irrelevant. If you want to include them in the debate you need to include the overall accident data for the years in question and the country where they took place. Be warned though; if they are not very recent, Sybarite will tell you that you are being selective in quoting old figures.

Sybarite started this off when he claimed that fire was "the biggest risk in boating". It isn't. All the available stats bear that out and he needs to either support his case or admit that he was wrong.