RIP Nina (and her crew).

[2nd_apprentice]

There's a reason why those familiar with wooden boats call the fiberglass sheeting a burial shroud. I know that the Carrs did something similar with their Falmouth Quay Punt "Curlew" before setting off to South Georgia but that was more elaborate than just sheeting her. A traditional carvel planked hull moves which leads to cracks in the fiberglass, resulting in (further) rot. Fiberglassing isn't a cure for nailsick boats, it can be done with clinker built or plywooden ones however. BTW I used to own a 90 yrs old mahogany on oak sailing boat and she required very little caulking. Rather than hammering in cotton strings I simply applied a sort of petroleum jelly from whine barrel buildersand waited for the planks to swell. Never took longer than half a day, even after spending to years on the hard during an extensive refit. After that you simply bailed her out. I learnt this from our harbour master, a professional wooden boat builder,who told me that excessive caulking killed carvel construction boats quicker than anything else.

Of course I can't comment on the condition of Nina.

 

[Woodlouse]

I find the fiberglass sheathing disturbing.If not properly done it'll lead to rotting of the hull and loss of integrity.Tabarly did it to Pen Duick I on two occasions and in the end it became a second hull outside the wooden original one.The boat is still going strong but the sheathing is much thicker than that on Nina.Let's hope they're still there drifting but the absence of an epirb signal is not encouraging.

As far as I'm aware with pen duick they fibreglassed the original hull which was then removed and disposed of. The fit out and fittings were then built into the fibreglass hull and away they went.

Your right about it leading to rot though and it's usually rot that leads to it being done in the first place.

However, I'll agree with the earlier poster about there being very little similarity with the Purbeck Isle. The MAIB report suggests that the Purbeck Isle suffered a catastrophic failure of the plank fastenings leading to an almost instantaneous sinking, the fact that the Niña was sheathed in fibreglass would make this fate much less likely.

 

[Woodlouse]

There's a reason why those familiar with wooden boats call the fiberglass sheeting a burial shroud. I know that the Carrs did something similar with their Falmouth Quay Punt "Curlew" before setting off to South Georgia but that was more elaborate than just sheeting her. A traditional carvel planked hull moves which leads to cracks in the fiberglass, resulting in (further) rot. Fiberglassing isn't a cure for nailsick boats, it can be done with clinker built or plywooden ones however. BTW I used to own a 90 yrs old mahogany on oak sailing boat and she required very little caulking. Rather than hammering in cotton strings I simply applied a sort of petroleum jelly from whine barrel buildersand waited for the planks to swell. Never took longer than half a day, even after spending to years on the hard during an extensive refit. After that you simply bailed her out. I learnt this from our harbour master, a professional wooden boat builder,who told me that excessive caulking killed carvel construction boats quicker than anything else.

Of course I can't comment on the condition of Nina.

Curlew I think was sheathed in double (or maybe even triple) diagonal cold moulding.

 

[2nd_apprentice]

Curlew I think was sheathed in double (or maybe even triple) diagonal cold moulding.

You're right there, which is why I wrote that it was a more elaborate method than just slapping on some epoxy. It's just something people like to bring up in defence of fiberglassing a wooden hull. And of course there's uncle Bob's Mirror dinghy which is still going strong...

Interestingly Baroque, one of Tilman's Bristol Pilot cutters, still survives whereas both steel boats he sailed on (Pantanella and En Avant) where lost at sea with all hands. There's nothing wrong with timber as long as it's reasonably well maintained in a technically correct manner.

 

[30boat]

As far as I'm aware with pen duick they fibreglassed the original hull which was then removed and disposed of. The fit out and fittings were then built into the fibreglass hull and away they went.

Your right about it leading to rot though and it's usually rot that leads to it being done in the first place.

However, I'll agree with the earlier poster about there being very little similarity with the Purbeck Isle. The MAIB report suggests that the Purbeck Isle suffered a catastrophic failure of the plank fastenings leading to an almost instantaneous sinking, the fact that the Niña was sheathed in fibreglass would make this fate much less likely.

I may be wrong, as it was a few years ago but I saw a picture of Pen Duicks forecabin and the wooden frames were in place.

 

[Woodlouse]

Interestingly Baroque, one of Tilman's Bristol Pilot cutters, still survives whereas both steel boats he sailed on (Pantanella and En Avant) where lost at sea with all hands. There's nothing wrong with timber as long as it's reasonably well maintained in a technically correct manner.

I think that is more a question of seaworthiness rather than the durability of different materials. Baroque has in fact sank three times during her life but since she was built as a work boat she was never intended to last as long as she has done.

I may be wrong, as it was a few years ago but I saw a picture of Pen Duicks forecabin and the wooden frames were in place.

To be honest I can't confirm my knowledge on this and it's just what I was told. I'll do some digging.

 

[Kukri]

You're right there, which is why I wrote that it was a more elaborate method than just slapping on some epoxy. It's just something people like to bring up in defence of fiberglassing a wooden hull. And of course there's uncle Bob's Mirror dinghy which is still going strong...

Interestingly Baroque, one of Tilman's Bristol Pilot cutters, still survives whereas both steel boats he sailed on (Pantanella and En Avant) where lost at sea with all hands. There's nothing wrong with timber as long as it's reasonably well maintained in a technically correct manner.

Absolutely right. The Carr's approach with Curlew was quite a different thing, and technically a well thought through approach. It's also worth noting that, as Conor O'Brien, EG Martin, Claud Worth and others pointed out, the stresses imposed by heavy weather on a wooden hull of "fishing boat form", with a gaff rig and inside ballast are very different.

 

[Sailfree]

As an Engineer I would comment that sticking too rigid a structure (GRP outer hull) on a flexible wooden hull might not add any strength at all just an apparent benefit of water tightness. As soon as hull stresses if the two dissimilar materials cannot move to the same extent in unison the brittle one will crack or fatique leaving you back to the remaining strength of the more flexible one (timber?).

Its a mistake I have seen in steelwork where people have combined bolts with welds. Weld is rigid and breaks before load is taken by the bolts.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I take this to be a reference to my post no 33 above. I did not use the word "unseaworthy" and neither did the reference I cited. I did make it clear that IF those statements were correct, then she was a deathtrap. However, you will no doubt have noticed that the man who made the original comments is Warwick Tompkins Jr, the son of Warwick Tompkins. I would think that it is rather brave of you to call such a man "unqualified", but that's up to you.

Minn .... I used your quote because you stated that there were many similarities. There are a huge amount of differences!

As for Warwick Tompkins, I am sure he may have some useful input into the discussion, but I don't believe that an hour on board Nina .... which was probably a social visit ..... could or should be used as an excuse to comment on her structural condition. What is more, I would be very surprised if he was happy with the way his speculation was reported.

 

[ffiill]

I may be wrong, as it was a few years ago but I saw a picture of Pen Duicks forecabin and the wooden frames were in place.

When Pen Duick was recovered after the war and found to be in a sorry state in the days when GRP was a new process I recall reading that the hull was first sheathed to get the shape;the interior removed ;the hull shape thickened on the inside with more glassfibre and the wooden interior from frames upwards modified where necessay and reused.
So in a sense it was of a composite construction.
Problem with mixing wood and plastic is that moist wood is full of microbes etc which once sealed in begin multiplying and eating the wood-rot

 

[hartcjhart]

Excuse me. BUT, weare in a thread about NINa, can you keep your comments relativew to th subjet

 

[DownWest]

Excuse me. BUT, weare in a thread about NINa, can you keep your comments relativew to th subjet

Since there is no fresh news on Nina, this discussion is quite relevent.

The GRP sheathing story made my skin crawl. Curlew is often quoted by people who want a quick fix. But, as said, it was far from a fix. Rather a measured re-build of the hull.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I've asked around and this grp sheathing story might be just that. Until such times as a survey, the repairing boatyard, or the family confirm the condition of Nina I think we should ignore this story however titillating some may find it.

The loss is tragic. Hopes of a happy outcome are fading. Don't lets get drawn into gossipy stories that may outlive the truth.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Excuse me. BUT, weare in a thread about NINa, can you keep your comments relativew to th subjet

Don't lets get drawn into gossipy stories that may outlive the truth.

Ahhh, the self appointed forum police.

I've found the conjecture on this topic interesting, civil & largely fact based. As it happens I don't wish it to stop.

If I did wish it to stop I don't think it would be my place to request that.

IMV, if you think there's a problem with a post tell the mods about it and let them decide if the post breaks forum rules.

 

[Tomahawk]

Whilst some members of the parish are enjoying themselves picking points off each other and speculating wildley about what may or may not have happened...

I am continuously aware that the people on board Nina are not in a happy place at the moment.. At best they are dismasted, without comms and drifting in a very large ocean... They may be in a liferaft... or some if not all off them are dead...
Whatever, they have been through a terrible and traumatic time.

I can't find it in myself to speculate about such things like they are the plot of east enders..

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I can't find it in myself to speculate about such things

They may be in a liferaft... or some if not all off them are dead...

Priceless.

 

[2nd_apprentice]

I am continuously aware that the people on board Nina are not in a happy place at the moment.. At best they are dismasted, without comms and drifting in a very large ocean... They may be in a liferaft... or some if not all off them are dead...

Who's speculating now? If you prefer to read how all our thoughts and prayers are with the family, send them a card. Perhaps better to have this thread closed until further notice then.

 

[Blueboatman]

Pecking around the Internet reveals that Nina had recently had a new engine fitted and had in fact just won some strong wind racing in the Bay of Islands..
Beautiful boat, I get the impression that ongoing restoration was being taken quite seriously by experienced owner..
Horrible part of the world for nasty boat bashing storms, fingers crossed for positive news

 

[TradewindSailor]

There's some info just up on Facebook that show the inaccuracies of the Iridium positions vs the SPOT positions and the last known position as communicated by the crew here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...533.1073741829.562485157120703&type=1&theater
and the areas that were covered by the New Zealand rescue service searches here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...533.1073741829.562485157120703&type=1&theater
The weather was pushing them NW, so if the search details are truely representative, then most of the NZ searches were a waste of time and Nina and/or her crew could still be out there.
The facebook site is far more informative that I can relate here ...
https://www.facebook.com/ninarescue?ref=stream&hc_location=timeline