right of way

THE REAL COLREGS

Small gives way to large

Glassfibre gives way to steel

Any racing boat will require right of way

Give way to Sunsail

Keep clear of any boat wearing a motoring cone in the solent: he is doing a course or his yachtmaster exam and is liable to lose a man overboard

Terror gives way to ignorance

Just because a boat's got windows doesn't mean anyone is looking out of them


etc etc
 
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... the young windsurfer who tried to overtake me in my tender while I was standing 10 meters off the slipway waiting for another windsurfer to clear so as not to foul his sail in my prop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that there is a shortage of dry land in your neck of the woods, so you have been forced to string your washing line up about 30 feet off shore. Luckily, the water is shallow, so you can wade out in order to hang up the wet laundry. So you're wading around, just to kill time, waiting for this windsurfer to clear your laundry drying area so you can put up your clothes prop, when a second windsurfer steals YOUR tender, and actually tries to outpace you.

Sheesh!!

Andy /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
"When he is finally past and clear."

The Colregs are full of weasel wording. But in this case, the problem is almost academic because the overtaking vessel is likely to continue to move faster than the overtaken vessel.
 
Yes. Norman E gave the same answer. Weasley Words is right. If the wind continues to blow steadily and you change course and not "impede the other vessel" then that's OK.
If you change course and the wind dies on you ?????????
Or if you go about and get caught in stays ??????????

No wonder these threads run for so long, and get nowhere.
 
This is one of those academic questions which is anything but academic. "...till she is past and clear" what a useless bit of garbage. I have had large vessels overtake on my starboard side, keeping nicely clear until their stern is forrard of my bow, then turning and me on the 'inside' of their turn - I have OFTEN had boats which clearly think that once they are no longer within the 135' overtaking zone they can start to turn on me. I can never understand when they could have crossed behind with virtually no deviation.
 
[ QUOTE ]
That is you can't be an overtaking craft for ever. How far past do you get before you are merely ahead?

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"Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear."

To my way of thinking, finally past and clear means that the next manoeuvre won't affect the vessel being overtaken. For example, if I'm under sail, overtaking a stinky, I don't think I can tack across his bows until I can do it without the stinky having to do anything, or even thinking he might need to.

If I know someone's racing, I'll do my best to keep out of their way, even if I am the stand on vessel, especially if they're under spinnaker. I'll do it in plenty of time and make it obvious, to the point of tacking or gybing if necessary. Exceptions are if I'm goosewinged, when a major change of course is a big deal, what with poles, preventers and things, and when I'm not sure what the racer would like me to do, when I'll just do my best to be predictable.

There is one other exception, which perhaps tells more about my character than I really want to let on /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif: If I think I'm being bullied by one of the "Get out of my way I'm racing" fraternity, who'll get 5 blasts from my foghorn. As has been pointed out in other threads, they're usually at the back of the race so they're the ones with the least to lose. If they upset me enough, they could also get a protest to the race organiser. If this isn't taken seriously, it'd be copied to the RYA. My experience of the real racers is that they're much too busy to get mad at an old Snapdragon plodding along.
 
I agree with everything you say, but there still remains the two examples I suggest
If you change course and the wind dies on you ?????????
Or if you go about and get caught in stays ??????????

Both of which are not particularly foreseeable, so you could agrgue you weren't in the wrong, but equally you have impeded the overtaken vessel.
 
If you're silly enough to overtake in a position where you need to tack or your sails are going to be blanketed before you are "past and clear", then unfortunately I think the person you've overtaken has to alter course to avoid a collision. It doesn't really matter who's the stand-on vessel then as each vessel has a duty to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.

It's happened to me with windsurfers overtaking and collapsing and dinghys racing in the channel and overtaking. I tend to keep a steady course when they're overtaking but move sharply if they suddenly slow down in front of me.

As for giving way to racers so they gain a few yards whilst I lose a few - outrageous! They are just racing around a few bouys for no particular reason whilst I am bravely clawing my way through an epic and storm tossed 7 and a half mile ocean crossing where every yard counts if I'm to get to the bar before they all pile in and take over.
 
sorry, not meant to be stern or pedantic, just pointing out a common misconception.

Regarding overtaking, Rule 13 -
"a vessel is deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam."
(ie. if you are in the area covered by the other vessels stern light, you are overtaking. If you could see their green or red lights, you are not)

"When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly"

My copy of IRPCS 1972, in "A Seaman's Guide to the Rule of The Road (officially approved for use in the Royal Navy)" specifically states Rule 16 "action by give-way vessel" & Rule 17 "action by stand-on vessel" can't find anything about 'burdened' or 'priviledged'. But I'm always willing to learn.
 
There's a lot of confusion - some of it dangerous to me and mine - about the ColRegs. Some of this is due to a 'permissive' attitude - that it's somehow all right to 'just not bother' - and some of it is sheer bloody-mindedness.

The ColRegs are *not* optional. They have the weight of international law, and are there to help prevent the injuries, loss of life and property that collisions generate. Those who have not studied the ColRegs can be forgiven for using colloquial terms - e.g. 'right of way' - but these 'journalistic' phrases obscure the detailed knowledge needed to make sound and safe judgements.

I was taught - and I teach - that, after a 'risk of collision' has been identified (!), there are 3 phases which the Regulations impose on us all:

1. The vessel required to 'stand on' is *obligated* under Rule 17 to maintain course and speed. The vessel required to 'keep out of the way' is *obligated* to adjust course and/or speed and - under Rule 16 - *shall* take...early and substantial action to keep well clear.

2. The 'stand on' vessel' *may* take action by her manoeuvre alone ( Rule 17a.ii ) as soon as it becomes apparent... that the other vessel is not taking appropriate action....

3. When it develops - for any reason - that a collision cannot be avoided by the action of the 'give way' vessel alone, then the 'stand on' vessel *shall/must* take action as will best aid to avoid collision. ( Rule 17b )

That means, for me and my students when we are in the 'stand on' vessel, that responsibility for collision-avoidance does not end with deciding that it is solely the other guy's responsibility. Our responsibility continues - and develops - under stages 2. and 3.

It is quite clear that if a collision occurs, insurance underwriters and the courts look to a professional interpretation of obligations under the ColRegs to assign blame and liability. And costs.

That said, I've experienced colossal pig-headedness on different racing boats, over many years, which amounts to physical bullying of others with the risk of serious injury, or worse. And I've experienced the same from professional watchkeepers on merchant and fishing vessels.

For both, I now keep a digital camera handy - and use it.
 
17 (a) ii and 17 (b)

are the most difficult part of the 1972 Collision Regulations, and I am very much inclined to think that they are one of the most frequent causes of disaster.

The other common causes of collisions as between ships in recent years have been the overtaking/crossing dilemma (not a problem at night, due to the light sector cut off, but a problem in daylight) and cases where there is uncertainty as to whether the visual rules or Rule 19 applies. There have also been cases where one ship has been in rain; this is a particular danger as the rain clutter affects both ships' radar. A shower can hide a ship which is coming right at you.
 
There certainly is a shortage of dry land. Portland sailing acadamy have designated one slipway about 4/5 meters wide for all wind surfers and tender launches, as the olympics draws nearer they will probably ban any tatty looking tenders and make us swim
 
Re: Strange Attitudes..........

Hi again - we were giving way, throttling back, ducking and diving to avoid the racing fleets, but on this occasion it was absolutely impossible to play dodgems. We also felt we were less of a hazard under engine than under sail, under the circs. So, we were trying to avoid problems.
 
new colregs

1 The distinctinly-larger boat has right of way.

2 If both boats are about the same size, the boat with a relative on the committee of the relevant organsing yacht club has right of way.

3 With no relatives on the committee, the boat with the matching crew gear has right of way.

4 If both boats have matching crew gear, the one with the larger number of celebrities on board has right of way.

5 If both boats have celebrities on board, the one with any female celebrities known only for getting their kit off must give way.

6 With no celebrities, the boat with a blue ensign has right of way.

7 If both boats have blue ensign, then the boat with blue hull has right of way.

8 If both have blue hull, then it's a chicken fight between helmsmen and
8.1 if one helm is an owner and the other isn't, the owner gives way
8.2 the helm with sunglasses wins
8.3 if both helms have sunglasses, they'll probably have a crash
 
Re: Strange Attitudes..........

That's fine when you are sure someone is racing.
If you can see the classes or the routes.
We had a good time last Sunday weaving through the various fleets trying to make sure they all had equal treatment and we didn't hold anybody up.
Then we met some person (I use this word rather than the one that described where I thought he kept his brain) coming nearly straight at my in the middle of the Solent all on his own.
Its no good yelling "get out the way" at the last moment - its not part of the colregs or racing rules I believe. (BTW, me on starboard, he on port). OK, so he had a little flag whch presumably meant something to him, the rest of the competitors he was no where near and the organisers. Absolutely no meaning to me, especially when attached to his back stay and well hidden from me when he was bearing down on me.
Its the sort of behaviour that gives racers a bad name.
We can only try when we know what you're doing.
 
Overtaking - hmmm. The overtking boat has to be n the arc of the stern light. If the angle is broader than it isnt an overtaking situation.
Where I think there is often a problem is the "stand on rule".
The stand on boat must maintain course and speed. I dont think ths gives a sail boat the right to tack so as to put itself on a collision course with another boat.
It may be expected in the racing rules - but in Colregs - surely not.
 
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